Top 4 managers : Page 2 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Top 4 managers

Claudius

:LOL: :LOL:

Burnwinter

Biggus wrote:
Burnwinter wrote:
If Wenger made himself available on the job market it would be the biggest story about a football manager this millennium. Same goes for Fergie of course, but there's zero chance of that. Maybe 25% it'll happen in Wenger's case.

Regrettably you're probably right Burnsy.
Wenger has stamped his mark everywhere on our club, it doesn't matter how lamentable our results get he's inveigled himself so deep into the structure he's become synonymous with it.
For many supporters like the slumbering subjugated citizens of a totalitarian regime, they're simply not aware that there is an alternative.

Realistically, our football results are consistently neither lamentable nor outstanding. The "stamp of Wenger" you refer to is a widely envied modernisation at Arsenal that's laid the foundations for future success (or depending on your point of view, removed some impediments).

Wenger earned the right to reorder our club by way of the immense success he brought us in phase one of his tenure. His performance has now been back under the microscope for a while, and rightly so.

But if Wenger announced he was available, an owner like Abramovich would probably offer him £10m plus per season tomorrow. There is a queue of clubs that desperately need what he's already done for us.

DKGooner

Opinion wise, I still think it is very difficult to pick top 4 managers as the issue is clouded somewhat by what is possible against what has been achieved. It also depends on the criteria set as to how much a European trophy is worth compared to domestic success. Any list is obviously going to be biased towards those who have actually headed big teams and won things, compared to those who have performed very well relative to the resources under their control.

These are the stats, in no particular order, for IMO the top 11 managers in Europe who are still managing (though 5 are currently managing international teams). I have excluded periods at early clubs where I deemed them to be minor:

Mourinho (2001-2011)
Trophies: 15
Last Trophy: 2011 - Domestic Cup
Leagues: Porto (2), Chelsea (2), Inter (2), Real Madrid (-)
Domestic Cups: Porto (1), Chelsea (3), Inter (1), Real Madrid (1)
Europe:
UEFA CUP: Porto (1)
C. League: Porto (1) & Inter (1)

Guardiola (2008-2011)
Trophies: 6
Last Trophy: 2011 – League & Champions League
Leagues: Barcelona (3)
Domestic Cups: Barcelona (1)
Europe:
C. League: Barcelona (2)

Ancelotti (1999-2011)
Trophies: 6
Last Trophy: 2010 – League & Domestic Cup
Leagues: Juventus (-), Milan (1), Chelsea (1)
Domestic Cups: Juventus (-), Milan (1), Chelsea (1)
Europe:
C. League: Milan (2)

Ferguson (1979-2011)
Trophies: 33
Last Trophy: 2011 – League
Leagues: Aberdeen (3), Manchester United (12)
Domestic Cups: Aberdeen (5), Manchester United (9)
Europe:
CW CUP: Manchester United (1)
UEFA CUP: Aberdeen (1)
C. League: Manchester United (2)

Hitzfeld (1991-2008 )
Trophies: 12
Last Trophy: 2008 – League & Domestic Cup
Leagues: Dortmund (2), Bayern Munich (5)
Domestic Cups: Dortmund (-), Bayern Munich (3)
Europe:
C. League: Dortmund (1) & Bayern Munich (1)

Del Bosque (1999-2005 & Spain 2008-2011)
Trophies: 5
Last Trophy: 2003 – League 2010 – World Cup
Leagues: Real Madrid (2), Besiktas (-)
Domestic Cups: Real Madrid (-), Besiktas (-)
Europe:
C. League: Real Madrid (2)
World Cup: Spain (1)

Benitez (2001-2010)
Trophies: 5
Last Trophy: 2006 – Domestic Cup
Leagues: Valencia (2), Liverpool (-), Inter (-)
Domestic Cups: Valencia (-), Liverpool (1), Inter (-)
Europe:
UEFA CUP: Valencia (1)
C. League: Liverpool (1)

Wenger (1987-2011)
Trophies: 10
Last Trophy: 2005 – Domestic Cup
Leagues: Monaco (1), Grampus 8 (-), Arsenal (3)
Domestic Cups: Monaco (1), Grampus 8 (1), Arsenal (4)
Europe:

Trappattonni (1975-2008 & 2008 to present - Ireland)
Trophies: 19
Last Trophy: 2007 – League
Leagues: Milan (-), Juventus (6), Inter (1), Bayern Munich (1), Benfica (1), Salzburg (1)
Domestic Cups: Milan (-), Juventus (2), Inter (1), Bayern Munich (1), Benfica (-), Salzburg (-)
Europe:
CW CUP: Juventus (1)
UEFA CUP: Juventus (2), Inter (1)
C. League: Juventus (1)

Hiddink (1987-2006)
Trophies: 12
Last Trophy: 2006 – League
Leagues: PSV (6), Fenebache (-), Valencia (-), Real Madrid (-), Chelsea (-)
Domestic Cups: PSV (4), Fenebache (-), Valencia (-), Real Madrid (-), Chelsea (1)
Europe:
C. League: PSV (1)

Capello (1991-2007) (2008 - present England)
Trophies: 10 (2 revoked)
Last Trophy: 2010 – League & Domestic Cup
Leagues: Milan (4), Real Madrid (2), Roma (1), Juventus (2 - both revoked)
Domestic Cups: Milan (-), Real Madrid (-), Roma (-), Juventus (-)
Europe:
C. League: Milan (1)

In terms of tangible achievement as measured by silverware, Wenger is the only one not to have won a major European trophy. On that basis, I think he should probably be last on the list, but the head says he should be in the top 5 purely on what he can achieve domestically. I am however very uncertain of his capability to win the CL with any team.

Ferguson, Mourinho and Guardiola would definitely make my top 4, with it being a toss-up between Wenger and Ancelotti for 4th. This is based very heavily on past achievement and as such, my placement of Wenger in 4th or 5th place does not reflect my belief that Wenger is not the man to lead this club forward. I doubt Wenger will win anything again (at least with Arsenal anyway), but the same is true for many of the others on the list as well. I think we at the beginning of a period where the next generation of "great" managers are starting to develop.

Biggus

Yeah top post DK, there is only one tangible way to measure success in football, and that of course is trophies.
And the biggest ones around are the Champions league and World cup, where it takes a very special type of manager to weld the very best players into a winning unit.
There are of course other types of managers, the able administrators, and amongst them Wenger belongs.

Burnwinter wrote:
The "stamp of Wenger" you refer to is a widely envied modernisation at Arsenal that's laid the foundations for future success (or depending on your point of view, removed some impediments).

Sorry Burnsy but theres no such thing as 'future success' it only exists in peoples mind in the form of thoughts, only the past and the present are tangible as DK pointed out, you're drifting off into the realms of blind faith.
Wenger hasn't transferred his plans into success on the pitch in 7 years and therefore by his position of dominance at the club has himself become an impediment to it.

Mirth

Biggus wrote:
Burnwinter wrote:
The "stamp of Wenger" you refer to is a widely envied modernisation at Arsenal that's laid the foundations for future success (or depending on your point of view, removed some impediments).

Sorry Burnsy but theres no such thing as 'future success' it only exists in peoples mind in the form of thoughts, only the past and the present are tangible as DK pointed out, you're drifting off into the realms of blind faith.
Wenger hasn't transferred his plans into success on the pitch in 7 years and therefore by his position of dominance at the club has himself become an impediment to it.

That's not true re: future success. There's a strong correlation between teams that have superior infrastructure and winning trophies. It's intangible in short time frames of a season but over the course of football history it's pretty clear which clubs are able to control and exert dominance over their rivals and which clubs flicker brightly but can't sustain themselves. At the very least, you're left with a higher base line to spring from.

y va marquer

Maybe I'm seeing what I want to see but there have been signs that Wenger's approach has shifted this season?
The idea that we're going to invest heavily in youth only, grow and educate our own winning team seems to have been tempered, out of necessity, with the realisation that experienced and talented pros like Per and Arteta are a vital component in any team.
We won't be breaking the bank this transfer season but with Podolski in the bag and with strongish links to players like Vertonghen and Dempsey I'm encouraged that we're heading in the right direction.
A Hazard on top would be the business.

FantasticMrFox

I think losing Cesc and especially Nasri hurt him quite a bit. Hopefully we will see a different approach this summer.

Captain

We're going to win the league next season.

Burnwinter

Biggus wrote:
Sorry Burnsy but theres no such thing as 'future success' it only exists in peoples mind in the form of thoughts, only the past and the present are tangible as DK pointed out, you're drifting off into the realms of blind faith.

I swear I replied to this earlier, but anyway, you're wrong. The very real future will be to the tangible present as that present is to the storied past. Planning is obviously a core part of football management.

I don't have blind faith in Wenger, I just don't pointlessly undermine rational criticism of him by way of a stubborn inability to recognise where he's done well.

If you want a considered opinion on 'how it is' in football, efficient management aside: income determines expenditure, expenditure determines league trophies. End of.

http://tomkinstimes.com/2010/12/soccernomics-was-wrong-why-transfer-expenditures-matter/
http://www.abeautifulnumbersgame.com/2011/02/finishing-in-premier-league-top-4.html

Captain

Those links are interesting. Cheers, hadn't read them before.

Burnwinter

Agreed mate—I went looking for the old hacksaw about wage spend vs league position and found those instead.

SimplyThePest

y va marquer wrote:
Maybe I'm seeing what I want to see but there have been signs that Wenger's approach has shifted this season?
The idea that we're going to invest heavily in youth only, grow and educate our own winning team seems to have been tempered, out of necessity, with the realisation that experienced and talented pros like Per and Arteta are a vital component in any team.
We won't be breaking the bank this transfer season but with Podolski in the bag and with strongish links to players like Vertonghen and Dempsey I'm encouraged that we're heading in the right direction.
A Hazard on top would be the business.

Read something the other day where Wenger said he trusts this team to be up for the fight and get a result more than he has some of our previous teams. Definitely think this season's brought a few home truths to him around building a proper side, wonder if that'll be reflected this summer.

kamikaze

Captain wrote:
We're going to win the league next season.

i've got a good feeling about next year, too. we have to keep van persie and sign podolski, but both look very likely at this point. hopefully we can pull off 1 more big signing if we can offload some of our garbage.

Burnwinter

I think we'll have a shot at it next season if we keep Van Persie and our other top talents, and have a bit of luck with injuries.

We'll be the best London side. The other determining factor will be what happens in Manchester. If City are in turmoil under a new manager and United don't strengthen considerably, we'll be in with a chance. However at five wins behind first at the moment, we've got huge ground to recover.

Biggus

😆 Have you lot been drinking out of Woolys tea cup?

Burnwinter

🙂 Power of positive thinking Biggsy.

squallkid

I think well win one of the big trophies next year, mainly league or fa cup.

Something just feels new and different about this team, its not the best team we've had but it does look like were more together now than at any other point in the last 8 years where it looked like we could crumble at any time.

I can see a lot more clean sheets for us next season if the defence continues to be strong, work from the back and move forward because all the attacking powers will mean sweet fuck all if you give up 4 goal leads and ship 8 goals in a game.

Credit to wenger for sorting us out and our signings in the summer will tell us a lot about where to place our expectations for next season.

Coombs

The league and FA cups are the smallest trophies we'll have the opportunity to win next season...don't think you can call them "one of the big trophies."

Claudius

The important thing is that they are trophies. I will happily take them.
I'm not convinced we can win the league or champions league unless we see a marked increase in investment. Wenger is not good enough to get this team to those titles without a few more big name players on the books.

Biggus

Burnwinter wrote:
🙂 Power of positive thinking Biggsy.

The power of positive drinking you mean.

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