Arteta - one more year and that’s it: Page 95 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Arteta - one more year and that’s it

DiabyKungFu

For what it's worth, I don't think this game really means much in the grand scheme of things but it does make it more clear how dumb it was to throw away the Nottingham Forest game.

Burnwinter

DiabyKungFu But I guess taking jabs at the level of some of these players is "trolling" and 10 different users each making 10 posts per day saying that our coach is actually terrible is "not trolling".

Mate don't confuse yourself with a revolutionary leader, you're just another ornery prick who thinks he's a genius like the rest of us. No one cares enough to check if you're really Spartacus.

tazmania

Artetas is a coward. He gives teams like city and pool too much respect. Go out and try to beat them. You don't have to go full on attack but at least set the team up for creating chances.

City got spanked by real and were sputtering but we somehow let them walk all over us in that second. We didn't look serious at any point, what a joke

tazmania

I really hope this was some 4d chess move and not a sign of things to come in a few weeks

DiabyKungFu

When you have a center forward that can't win the duels and you have an attacking midfielder that can't pass the ball, then I don't really see how mad you can get about not winning the game. It's not normal to win games under those conditions. The fact that our coach has somehow managed to do this consistently all season is not something that should be taken for granted.

Burnwinter

I think he's a good manager but also he made several wrong calls today.

That's what you call a situated critique, and it invites a defence of Arteta in terms of his performance today, rather than a gesture to his achievements all season.

What were his good moments, do you think? Selecting Kepa, saying things in the dressing room that led to us coming out for the second half like we were awaiting execution, leaving Kepa on till he fucked up, not taking Kepa off after he fucked up, taking till 63' to make changes, bringing on players who didn't make an impact, taking till 85' to make more changes, then bringing on Jesus as his last ditch attempt to change the match? Great effort was it?

DiabyKungFu

Burnwinter What were his good moments, do you think?

The reason we didn't hold 4 or 5 is that we're great out of possession. This is the team's greatest "skill" in general and it is pure 100% coaching.

Burnwinter

DiabyKungFu Again, I have no idea what you think I'm being unresponsive to. I cannot think of a more direct way to say this.

Let me make you a questionnaire.

Burnwinter What were his good moments, do you think? Selecting Kepa, saying things in the dressing room that led to us coming out for the second half like we were awaiting execution, leaving Kepa on till he fucked up, not taking Kepa off after he fucked up, taking till 63' to make changes, bringing on players who didn't make an impact, taking till 85' to make more changes, then bringing on Jesus as his last ditch attempt to change the match? Great effort was it?

For you, just answer yes or no.

Was it good to select Kepa?
Was it good that we came out for the second half like we'd seen our deaths?
Was it good that Kepa was left on till he fucked up?
Was it good that Kepa wasn't taken off after he fucked up?
Was it good that the first subs happened at 65 minutes?
Was it good that of the first subs made, only Calafiori had a notably positive impact?
Was it good that no more changes were made until 82 minutes?
Was it good that Gabriel Jesus was brought on to save us?
Was it a good effort at achieving the "optimal distribution of minutes between the players"?

These are just the questons I asked you.

The bullshit theory of the "nature of coaching" you've been blowing on about ever since as if these kinds of calls aren't part of coaching, all to avoid answering any of these questions with anything more than effectively saying "these questions don't matter because I need to win the argument about Arteta performing brilliantly today" are why I'm saying you're talking in bad faith.

You can answer the questionnaire, or you can fuck off with acting like a patch of mould that thinks it's en route to a Nobel Prize, or you can do both—but I hope you do the second one.

Or alternatively you could admit these decision are actually part of coaching, and they do actually affect outcomes. I assert there has rarely been a clearer instance this season of it, and that is the condition of my "disgust" with Arteta.

Your entire line in this dialogue has been that this condition is either false or not fit to be a condition at all, but you certainly haven't given any detail as to why anyone would accept that. You've just been a fuckknuckle and pretended I can't read the empty cant you're posting.

Burnwinter

DiabyKungFu The reason we didn't hold 4 or 5 is that we're great out of possession. This is the team's greatest "skill" in general and it is pure 100% coaching.

Yes the team is extremely well organised and Arteta is regularly singled out for praise by other managers for this, who cite their fear of how quick we are moving between tactical phases for instance.

Very good. Now what's a decision Arteta made today that was clearly good? He brought Calafiori on. Maybe a bit late though. That's about it.

DiabyKungFu

Saying Arteta is actually a bad coach because of certain substitutions reminds of when it was popular to say that Andy Reid was a bad coach due to his clock management. There is some narrow argument there that could be potentially steelmanned but it's kinda fundamentally missing the point that the biggest gains from coaching happen on the practice field, not on game day.

Burnwinter

DiabyKungFu Saying Arteta is actually a bad coach

Who are you talking to?

DiabyKungFu

Burnwinter Now what's a decision Arteta made today that was clearly good?

As I said above, I think that point is so narrow that it effectively misses the point of the nature of coaching entirely.

DiabyKungFu

Burnwinter Who are you talking to?

You could swap "Saying Arteta is a bad coach" with "Being 'disgusted' with Arteta" and I don't think anything changes.

RowJimmy

Burnwinter
There's a bunch of "clown" and "coward" and so forth in the game thread.

Burnwinter

DiabyKungFu As I said above, I think that point is so narrow that it effectively misses the point of the nature of coaching entirely

No, not entirely. The "nature of coaching" you're hand-waving about includes the decisions made on match day which are what I'm asking you to reflect on ... all the while agreeing with you explicitly that Arteta is good at organising the team.

It's okay if you're so incapable of defending Arteta's match day performance that you have to pretend match days aren't even part of coaching. If that's where we're landing I'll rest.

DiabyKungFu

It's like a Barca fan responding to their CL meltdowns against Roma or Liverpool by being "disgusted" at Lionel Messi. One could certainly construct an argument in that direction as a form of intellectual exercise, but it all just strikes me as kinda silly and unserious.

Burnwinter

DiabyKungFu I think you mean it's like talking to someone who's completely unable to accept the conditions attached to a judgement in good faith. And the Barcelona connection is unfortunate considering Arteta's just been out-coached by Guardiola again.

Here's the context you keep pretending doesn't exist:

@Burnwinter #p2527179 First time in a while ...
Mikel, I support and admire you ...

DiabyKungFu

I guess to be even more direct to my point, do you believe that there exists any universe whatsoever where Arteta walks out the door and the team isn't worse? My take on that is "Obviously no. This is obviously as good as it is ever going to get." And, if things are as good as they are ever going to get, then what on Earth is the point of complaining? There is no valor in complaining.

Burnwinter

DiabyKungFu I guess to be even more direct to my point, do you believe that there exists any universe whatsoever where Arteta walks out the door and the team isn't worse? My take on that is "Obviously no. This is obviously as good as it is ever going to get."

I've clarified this up thread, after all that's what this thread is about.

We'd evidently lose a huge amount if Arteta left, and more to the point we're still fighting strongly in three competitions right now and favourites to win the league. If we win the league or the Champions League, fantastic.

But we're now way past "questions need to be asked about Arteta" if we finish second in four consecutive league seasons.

At that stage the club has got to figure out if there's something missing in Arteta's skill set that's holding the whole process back. Pretending match days aren't even part of coaching is not the attitude that'll help with that. The lens would have to be just as holistic as Arteta himself always emphasises.

Same view I took in the first few weeks of the season and in preseason.

Today I saw a manager who couldn't get us over the line or give us anything extra, over and above his methodically brilliant preparation, by way of intuition or creativity. Something went wrong, because he's been better on other match days. But we can't afford this sort of level in a Champions League final.

SimplyThePest

This is Arteta's team, though. For the most part, these are the players he wanted and their profiles align with the type of football he wants to play and that we do play. Physical, attritional, defensively organised while being cautious and calculated in attack at best, ponderous and impotent at worst.

If the players aren't that talented then Arteta should be canned immediately because he has spent a lot of money acquiring many of them.

QuincyAbeyie

SimplyThePest This is Arteta's team, though.

Are you ignoring this part, @DiabyKungFu, or do you disagree? If we need to be carried by coaching because of our inferior players, is it not Arteta's doing?

est

Arteta coaches a mean defence, but it comes at a cost of the midfield and attack.

So far, it has proven to be a cowardly system that gets us to nearly-men territory. But we've been there with decent attacking football and a lot less investment, so it doesn't look like Arteta's actually doing anything special here.

SimplyThePest

est I reckon he gets that from Moyes. Prioritises defensive shape, organisation and discipline and expects the attack to develop off execution of the former.

I can't remember the last time I watched an apparently 'top' side look as bereft of ideas going forward as we often do.

DiabyKungFu

As it pertains to the question of match day decisions, I don't think it was the optimal distribution of minutes between the players but I also think there is almost no way in hell the optimal distribution of minutes between the players does not also result in a loss today. There is only so much that can be done about a talent disparity this big.

DiabyKungFu

DiabyKungFu I also think there is almost no way in hell the optimal distribution of minutes between the players does not also result in a loss today.

Actually, to be totally honest, I will caveat that I can imagine a parallel universe where Max Dowman starts the game and goes Super Saiyan and that is what wins the game. I think that was unlikely for reasons not completely related to football but I can't really see any other feasible path to being favorites in the game with the players available.

DiabyKungFu

Burnwinter So far you've refused to address the detailed list of poor match day decisions I gave above

DiabyKungFu As it pertains to the question of match day decisions, I don't think it was the optimal distribution of minutes between the players but I also think there is almost no way in hell the optimal distribution of minutes between the players does not also result in a loss today. There is only so much that can be done about a talent disparity this big.

est Yeah we'd have dominated the match if we had players the quality of Nico O'Reilly, Trafford, Doku and Khusanov out there today.

O'Reilly and Doku are genuinely great players. Khusanov is a pretty good player. I don't actually really have an opinion on Trafford.

O'Reilly being a great player actually pisses me off because Rico Lewis is shit. How the fuck was Rico Lewis in the first team before O'Reilly was? It's baffling.

DiabyKungFu

Burnwinter Arteta's just been out-coached by Guardiola again.

I don't think this happened at all. Guardiola had substantially better players on the field today. Perhaps this is a point of disagreement.

Burnwinter

DiabyKungFu I don't think this happened at all.

Guardiola didn't have to do much to out-coach the guy having a nightmare.

DiabyKungFu Perhaps this is a point of disagreement.

I wouldn't know. So far you've refused to address the detailed list of poor match day decisions I gave above, or indeed offer any defence of Arteta's match day performance beyond claiming it's not part of his job. But do let me know when you finally reach the point of being ready to actually disagree.

est

DiabyKungFu Guardiola had substantially better players on the field today.

Yeah we'd have dominated the match if we had players the quality of Nico O'Reilly, Trafford, Doku and Khusanov out there today. Poor Arteta, when will he finally get players he trusts!

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