Played in a midfield next to Gilberto. Next to Song. Next to Flamini. Next to Denilson.

Made no difference.

The thing is (and at the same time what is, in my opinion, Wenger's biggest blindspot) that Cesc is a brilliant part of a well oiled machine; not so much the whole basis of the machine itself. By that, I mean that you can't make Cesc a superstar like we did Henry without serious issues arising.

Henry wouldn't have had half the career he did if he hadn't played most of it next to Dennis Bergkamp, with Pires on his left, and Patrick Vieira behind him.

Caligula wrote:

The truth is that Cesc could probably play in a midfield next to a guy like Mascherano and be very effective.

It's not necessarily an issue of Cesc alone. It's the group of players as a whole don't make sense together

Mascherano has always looked poor when played in a 2 man midfield. Thats the problem with specialist players like that.

asajoseph wrote:

Henry wouldn't have had half the career he did if he hadn't played most of it next to Dennis Bergkamp, with Pires on his left, and Patrick Vieira behind him.

Your point being...?

Fairly obvious, no?

I think Captain was basically saying you can't build a team around Cesc like you could with Henry.

If so then I agree.

Why not?

Put the same calibre of players around Cesc as Henry had, you'd have more or less the same results.

I'm incline to agree with Captain. Fabregas doesn't strike me as a 20 goal-20 assist type player that Wenger sees him to be. I much preferred his role during 2006-2008.

How many central midfielders are there out there who get 20 goals and assists a season?

None, hence why I think Wenger's wrong. Don't see him as a central midfielder these days either, he's very nearly a second forward designed to get into the box.

When did Wenger say he was a 20-20 player?

That's the thing, he's not a central midfielder anymore. At least he doesn't play like one.

asajoseph wrote:

When did Wenger say he was a 20-20 player?

He hasn't. But Fabregas is quite obviously expected to score more goals just by the way he's been used the past two seasons. Fabregas did say that he's now playing a more forward role and less involved in defending/build up play or something along those lines.

Ok, well, last season he did ok on the goalscoring front. This season, much less so.

asajoseph wrote:

Why not?

Put the same calibre of players around Cesc as Henry had, you'd have more or less the same results.

I think he's the type of player to get the best out of others rather than an individual you get the best out of by building a team around.

In a way though it's all the same. You could agrue that the old team was build around Bergkamp by having players like Henry, Pires and Ljungberg in the side, players with great pace and movement. So I guess it is simply about surrounding Cesc with the right players.

Build the team around him or not, playing him in such an advanced position isn't really working in bringing the best out of him or the team.

I don't have too much issue with Fabregas' contribution per say.

My opinion is that the way we play gets the best out of Fabregas but reduces the effectiveness of our other forward players. Then again, it's a fair point that Arshavin, Nasri and Walcott aren't on the same level as Pires, Henry and Bergkamp so it's understandable that Arsene relies on Fabregas like he does, particularly when RvP is out. . Also, I feel that when Fabregas plays in his current role, he doesn't influence the game like he used to and can be marked out by organised defences. This was never the case when he was a central midfielder where he routinely dominated games against better teams, even when we lost. Allowing Fabregas to worry about the creative side of the game (along with Wilshere) and buying a proper goal scorer to help van Persie/Arshavn/Nasri would bring us more stability.

That would also make Song's life a lot easier.

anyone else prefer nasri on the wing? he's not the typical pacey, tricky winger, but he's shown he can learn to get in behind and he's a good finisher. as a CM, his main weaknesses (not releasing the ball early enough, and wanting the ball for his ego's sake and not because he's the best option) are magnified. i don't think he's anything special as a CM - i think he could be a consistent 15 goal, 10 assist guy from the wing, which is great production.