Fulham v Arsenal Sunday Dec 8th 14 KO: Page 18 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Fulham v Arsenal Sunday Dec 8th 14 KO

Clrnc

I don't think we did enough to win. We can complain about the marginal offside, but we were even lucky for our equaliser. Could have easily lost.

Leno was very comfortable.

Control ball really stifle our attack. Just compare that to Liverpool who pepper opponents week in week out. We need to release some control

Qwiss

Clrnc reading this morning Saliba interviewed and he said "we need to be much better in defence". I hope thats not Artetas message because what we need is to be better in attack from open play. We created so little yesterday.

It drives me mad that Odegaard came back and for 2 games we played incredible football against Forrest and West Ham with loads of slick passing and intricate play around the opposition third but then dropped that to start lumping crosses in at a virtually empty box again.

QuincyAbeyie

Sicario2 - Tier 1 Winners or championship teams don’t go on and on about things that went against them.

The most winning team in history of football refused to attend the Ballon d'Or because their player didn't win it and complained in the media about how disrespected they felt.

Burnwinter

Sicario2 - Tier 1 stop crying and using ref’s as a fucking excuse for us not being up for it this season. Time to wake up and smell the coffee. This is football these things happen. Get over it. Winners or championship teams don’t go on and on about things that went against them. Man up.

"Don't express discontent about events that empirically happened and contributed to Arsenal being 6 points behind league leaders Liverpool having played a game more … instead engage in relentless, histrionic gnashing and wailing and harp on my preferred fixations about how terrible you, me, Arsenal and everyone currently connected to Arsenal are, because that is the only path to victory. Man up."

Fucking pipe down eh?

Don Pacifico

Burnwinter yeah, things can be bad. They can even feel like confirmation of previously unspoken fears. But seeing the team, the manager et al being completely written off like the last two seasons didn't happen is disappointing.

And that doesn't mean there aren't problems. Clearly there are. But everything and everyone aren't suddenly shit.

Burnwinter

Unlike some I haven't been bottling, flouncing and rage-quitting the whole season for a couple of months, but hey, "man up" … 🙄

awooga83

Don Pacifico I think part of that comes from where we are with this side, 5 years in it's supposed to be the business part of the plan delivering the big outcomes. To be having a season where we are looking quite far away from that and potentially being out of the race in December is quite a big regression and inevitably you question where things are.

Then to see City stumble and we aren't the team in position to take advantage and In fact there are another 2 ahead of you is a blow to the confidence in the side. For as much as we have had luck this season, and we have, the opposite is probably true for the last couple keeping are most influential players fit having most performing to near their peak but we couldn't deliver the title when they luck was with us.

So if we can't do it in those circumstances I can't help feel are we ever going to be able to with things as they are and if not what do we need to do to change that.

Don Pacifico

awooga83 I don't fundamentally disagree with any of that. All I'm arguing is let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.

And I get people are frustrated; for what it's worth I'm also frustrated, I just don't think everything is shit.

Henry14th

awooga83

Claudius

Qwiss i think you are severely underplaying the role of the opponent in these games. I thought that ws the best United team I have seen in years, and Fulham were similarly organised. It reminds me a lot of the Bayern games, and also of several Manchester City games I have watched this season. Lesser teams have realised that the best approach to managing Arsenal/City is to remain compact and organised.

So we need to vary more. The corners help a lot because we have a clear advantage. But I think we need to be better at giving up the ball, absorbing pressure and breaking to catch teams when they are disorganized - and score in the same way we are conceding goals. You'll see that most of our conceded goals happen when we are disorganized as teams hit us on the break.

awooga83

Qwiss didn't Arteta say something similar I thought I saw on arseblog. That's the really frustrating thing and why I've said Arteta sets the team up to go for those marginal outcomes. Shut the team out get our goal and we hold it.

But it's such a risky strategy if your not quite on it or the opposition create a quality moment then you can be undone and I think that's a real risk of happening enough to sink you. You can potentially have a season where everything goes perfect and maybe you come out with a title but that is a very small outcome possibility that requires a near perfect set up and not pragmatic enough in my view to maximise your chances to win the title.

est

I watched the game while busy with some other things. Why did Arteta sub Odegaard off?

Gabriel Jesus is such a depressing player. Every time he comes on to stink up the place. Bringing him on when we need a goal is like giving the opposition an extra player and going a player down ourselves.

daredevil

At the end of the day, what really cost us was Kiwior, who is our budget defensive signing, who gave up a goal in Fulham's one and only attack. He cost us in an almost an identical manner to Salah's equaliser at the Emirates. The way we compress up the pitch and play in the opponents half, we allow 1-1 situations at the back and defenders who aren't top drawer will get exposed.

That's why we spend money on defenders and need to strengthen again given that Kiwior (as a CB), Tierney, Zinchenko, Calafiori, Tomiyasu are all unreliable or not good enough. The 3-2 base is the platform that allows the 5 in front to attack, hence why it's prioritised. That doesn't mean we shouldn't spend on the attack, we absolutely must, but the reason why one is highly prioritised is obvious.

We do need to strengthen the attack, and if I had to choose, I would probably go with a creative player. We aren't creating enough chances in open play.

Don Pacifico

Claudius So we need to vary more. The corners help a lot because we have a clear advantage. But I think we need to be better at giving up the ball, absorbing pressure and breaking to catch teams when they are disorganized - and score in the same way we are conceding goals. You'll see that most of our conceded goals happen when we are disorganized as teams hit us on the break.

Yeah, this does resonate with me. Whilst we could definitely benefit from improving personnel in certain areas of the pitch, the fact that we so rarely see the counter-attacking threat we relied on in 22/23 is frustrating (particularly given it feels a very deliberate choice).

Qwiss

Claudius I thought that ws the best United team I have seen in years

That United team since Amorim has come in has been poor. They were rubbish again this week. He seems to have the right ideas but Uniteds squad has nowhere near enough quality and we just wore them down. In the second half they were ragged.

Claudius and Fulham were similarly organised.

And Forrest aren't a well organised team? Its easier to defend crosses with organisation than the sort of football we played against Forrest. Fulhams defenders can head balls away and shove Havertz over all day and we played into that. Bassey is as error prone as they come and we didn't do nearly enough to put him under pressure.

Claudius So we need to vary more.

That's the point. We have lost the variety. Everything comes down the wings, or if Martinelli is benched just one wing. We need more through the middle and more interplay rather than crosses. That doesn't mean no crosses but it means crossing can't be 90% of what we are doing.

Don Pacifico

Qwiss We need more through the middle and more interplay rather than crosses.

One of the things that's puzzling me is this doesn't seem to be a default piece of our armoury. We can do it but in yesterday's match (as an example), we only seemed to prioritise it in the 2nd half (maybe even after we scored?). So maybe there's a confidence issue there or maybe it is a tactical choice.

Bring Back Kerrea Gilbert

Qwiss That doesn't mean no crosses but it means crossing can't be 90% of what we are doing.

It's so disappointing. Wenger must feel ill when he watches us at times.

Qwiss

awooga83 our xG against was really low. Jimenez got one chance and managed a perfect finish. Thats football. That we created as little as they did from open play is what really hurt us.

awooga83

Qwiss totally get that my point was you can have an opponent pull out a wonder moment but if you're game is set up to not create many chances then that will cost you. To mitigate it you want to score a few goals and create the chances to allow you to execute that so that you are somewhat protected from those moments in so much as possible. Whereas we put a lot of faith in the 1-0 shut out to get us home but that leaves you vulnerable to lots of the variance in a match, bad form, wonder goal, poor ref etc.

Clrnc

Saying Fulham is organised so we can't beat them does not really make sense to me. We can draw against teams sometimes, freak result, it happens. But creating like 0.1xG or something in open play just does not make sense to me. It's more of our fault for not even creating much in many matches this season than the opponent being organised. Every opponent will try to defend well against us, especially for such a small club like Fulham. As a big club we have more than enough ability and talent to win matches like this by employing the right tactics. If we peppered their goal but still came away with a draw, we can only blame luck but that's not the case. Bayern is not a lesser team than us by the way. We just often lack creativity and the right freedom in attack to hurt teams.

There were many instances where Fulham was launch half hearted attempts to attack and by default (with Arteta shouting animated at the sidelines) to all go back and defend deep. When their cross inevitably get cleared by Saliba or Kiwior, we have 0 outlets to launch a counter attack because everyone is so deep. When Saka receives the ball and we try to pass our way out, by that time Fulham is back in their shape defending. We are so bloody slow and deep which meant its often easy for opponents and we create nothing. Compare that to Liverpool who often have Diaz, Nunez and Salah up front waiting for balls to be cleared and run into open space to score easily. What we need is that kind of freedom. Saka also said as much in one of the interview.

MistaT

Thinking more on the game, and Fulham, and I'm even more annoyed by us creating fuck all against them from open play. Fulham are having a great season and I've been impressed watching them. They have a nice shape and move the ball well by utilizing 15-20 yard passes and some smart angles.

But, they're also not that tight of a team defensively, and we never looked to exploit that. ControllBall is killing our transition game as it demands we go wide, slow play down (via Saka or Martinelli) and in turn the defence has time to get set/compact.

When we were at our best we had Havertz marauding through lines/gaps, Martinelli attacking the channel, and Saka accelerating play with Odegaard just off his shoulder. I'm not sure we're doing any of those things consistently anymore, and it seems as much from design as from fatigue (both physically, and I would imagine mentally to Arteta's coaching).

We are in desperate need of an Arshavin-eque signing in January. Someone who can come in without being shackled by (Arteta's) instructions and create on their own. I don't want a young player who will provide too many concessions to our approach, I want a livewire like Sanchez.

Marmoush seems the obvious choice though it'll take a fortune. Nico Williams is too down on confidence/form, so he's off the table for me. Leao fits the bill in many ways but I think he'd burn out (a la Pepe) too quickly in our structure.

Anything to Ismael Saibari (CM/AM) to jump into our left 8? He has 5 goals and 7 assists for a high flying PSV.

or Dodi Lukebakio (RWF/CF) for Sevilla? he caught my eye in highlights vs Atletico and has some decent stats.

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