I'm curious to know what you think is actually going on? There have always been bad decisions because frankly, it's a hard to impossible job to see everything and get it right.
But I've never seen it like the last couple seasons. And on top of that, the media has been muzzled and the refs themselves are actively changing the narrative. There's gaslighting going on everywhere.
I'm getting close to not watching anymore. Tired of talking about the refs each week (I appreciate the irony).
All the above.
My hunch is there's an element of "corruption" ... I suspect some or all referees are discussing Arsenal as a problem to be solved and a club that has to be kept in line in private channels.
I don't think it's any secret that PGMOL is a solid professional guild with a quirky structural influence in a massive industry, and high financial and personal stakes in keeping that influence. What I'm talking about is just how that kind of group tends to behave.
I don't think there is corruption really, I mean if the idea is there is corruption the first thing I want to understand if you held that belief is do you think only Arsenal are subject to this effect. I don't think that's credible really.
But incompetence and an organisation seemingly unwilling to reflect when things haven't gone well and almost default to being defensive contribute to not a great quality in the refereeing. We are feeling it but I'm sure many clubs feel it as well.
I have to say, I'm literally just watching the West Ham penalty and, for once, I feel deep deep sympathy for ETH (but also hahaha you Ming the Clueless fuck) cos if that's a penalty, the game's gone. I think that was far worse than anything I saw at the Emirates today (although clearly, it's a very soft foul given on Szboszlai).
Get rid of VAR I think, the dual layer of subjectivity is making everyone's brains melt. tbh, I was amazed our second goal was given - given how long that decision took.
i think VAR has created a lot of issues that frankly should have been solved easily. the premier league is a multi billion dollar operation, how many people are in the VAR room? a few? decisions should be reviewed and made within 30 seconds at this point. youve got 83 cameras on the pitch at all times from every angle. you have the technology to draw the lines. it shouldnt take 5 minutes to make a decision, ever.
now that the toothpaste is out of the tube, it would be tough to say "ehh, we're scrapping it" because the first time a bad decision is made in real time and a goal stands or is ruled out that swings the title race, people will be screaming again. they made their bed, now they have to lie in it. they need to throw a lot more resources at it and get it right 100% of the time, in much shorter time. the technology is there. figure it out.
regarding corruption, you always have to ask yourself "could this really be orchestrated and kept a secret?"....how many people would need to be involved in the conspiracy? there is a whole group of referees and linesman officiating every weekend, you'd need all of them to be on board, because it isnt just one referee anymore that has it in for us like it was when mike dean was around. we've been on the short end from a lot of referees in the last few years. then you have to consider that if everyone was pushed to lean against arsenal, are there no arsenal childhood supporters that have grown up to be referees or linesman? surely if there were, and one of them was told to rule against arsenal in some kind of systemic way, they'd blow the whistle. the same goes for any club really.
i think its a lot of incompetence, honestly. i want to believe in the grand conspiracy because that would be more comforting in way, knowing we were just not allowed to win instead of we just come up short every time or we just get unlucky when call after another goes against us.
Anthony Taylor only blew the whistle today when it was clear that Havertz might make something of the knock on by Kiwior. It was blatant. Delayed his whistle longer than it took Trossard to kick the ball away against City. Fucking cunts.
RocktheCasbah Get rid of VAR I think, the dual layer of subjectivity is making everyone's brains melt. tbh, I was amazed our second goal was given - given how long that decision took.
I feel differently. VAR's proven that referees in this country need to be booted out (whatever the reason) and a new institution must replace PGMOL. It's been a failure of execution - not the technology which should have been implemented 2 decades ago anyway. Even assuming good faith, it pains me that that these guys invested millions into new tech to reduce uncertainty only to add a new set of subjective concepts around 'clear and obvious' decisions - there's a Dilbert comic in there somwhere.
Also the blatant muzzling of the media is inexcusable - it's just a rotten system.
awooga83 I don't think there is corruption really
You can say that, but there's very strong evidence that there is self-interest in play.
For instance, the explanations given by the "key match incidents" process are laughably lacking in any capacity for PGMOL to adequately critique its own performances.
I don't think Arsenal is necessarily being singled out but I do think Arsenal becomes a natural target for the following reasons:
In short, we've got the capacity to influence PGMOL's trajectory—and even if it continues to operate along the same lines, which in my opinion it probably shouldn't—so it should be no surprise if they have some sort of reaction.
mdgoonah41 regarding corruption, you always have to ask yourself "could this really be orchestrated and kept a secret?"
Not at all. It is absolutely certain that PGMOL has internal dialogues that we never hear about. It is absolutely certain that both specific incidents and the statements of specific clubs are mentioned in these dialogues. And it is certain that there are other private dialogues behind those internal dialogues we don't hear about, the informal ones that don't get minuted behind the ones that do.
It all depends on what you're willing to judge a conspiracy, but I see it as far more likely than not that there are conversations occurring concerning Arsenal and other clubs that would leave us aghast. Knowing how the league's clubs and institutions have always operated, what's truly implausible to me is the premise all of PGMOL's internal discussions would get anywhere near our expectations of probity and propriety.
Mirth I can understand that and think you make good points.
I think my issue with VAR is that we expect referees to use it to make the right calls, but the technology only helps them to make better informed yet still totally subjective calls. So even if you nailed down a 100% idiot proof process, you will still get errors -because everyone sees the game differently and, despite what we've been told recently, the laws of the game are open to interpretation.
Mirth Agree with you here. The implementation of the VAR system has had the effect of making referees less accountable and more influential, which is not at all how it should be working. The idea you patch the bad implementation by also making PGMOL fellow travellers media stars is embarrassing and disreputable.
The easiest explanations are incompetence and bias. The bias one is a credible option. Here is the main article on the Guardian’s website today. Read the headline, and then read the content.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/oct/27/they-were-on-the-floor-so-many-times-arne-slot-accuses-arsenal-of-time-wasting
Claudius The easiest explanations are incompetence and bias.
It's not like the possibilities of incompetence, bias and corruption in poor decision-making exclude each other. In fact, these things go together.
The issue for the relatively long-lived cabal of PGMOL old boys is existential.
Webb is PGMOL's technical director and one of its media faces. He's been involved in Premier League refereeing for over two decades now. In the background you have other self-interested operators like Gallagher or Clattenburg looking for various angles to make a living. Both men who were active match referees in periods overlapping with Webb—note I'm not saying they're in a conspiracy with Webb, I'm just pointing out there is an echelon of men who have become "medium rich" from Premier League refereeing and want to continue earning.
This "golden generation" of referees is more or less a legacy of the Premier League's own inception date and the gradual way it worked out its institutions as they now stand. It's because this generation of referees has been part of the football furniture for ages that punters tolerate their media work.
There is no particular reason PGMOL's current structure and way of working is the best we could have. The system and its processes have been cobbled together. The league's VAR system is fractured and contributes controversy nearly every match week. No one other than the PGMOL old boys' club would be too bothered if this was all swept away in a campaign of reform and improvement.
This is why questions of competence have stirred up slightly absurd media stonewalling from PGMOL in many, many cases now. There have been many obviously dubious or inconsistent decisions that PGMOL has backed up with dodgy public rhetoric. For example rather than rationalising decisions, the KMI public reviews have often tended to make them seem even sillier and dodgier.
The reason is that PGMOL's incompetence threatens PGMOL's existence so they overcompensate. PGMOL is vulnerable, and in my assessment, it is likely to be—at least informally—corrupt.
Feels like some of y'all think corruption has to be people in hoods in a secret chamber cackling evil laughs. It's blatantly corrupt. It may be casual, it may be banal, it may be informal, but it's corrupt.
Coombs Feels like some of y'all think corruption has to be people in hoods in a secret chamber cackling evil laughs. It's blatantly corrupt. It may be casual, it may be banal, it may be informal, but it's corrupt.
Yes, this is it. Corruption looks a lot like the boys private WhatsApp chat organising fortnightly beers and happening to clarify its collective workplace agenda at the same time.
PGMOL smells like a typical example of an insufficiently professionalised and remunerated bureaucracy that has been fractured by conflicts of interest. Almost all public bureaucracies were like this in the UK prior to the great round of reforms in the 19C.
The Premier League has institutions so weak that it is on the point of being crippled by business and legal attacks launched by several of its own member clubs. Every time there's a super league challenge PGMOL refs have to wonder if they'll still have their jobs in the new world, so it's no surprise PGMOL has its grifters taking Saudi paydays or trying to create lateral career paths for themselves.
All of the above but corruption is definitely a part of it. Some of them are on Man City’s payroll, no doubt indirectly, others are perhaps hoping to be. The reality is that we have received 3 red cards this season for infringements that have been repeated by others dozens of times, in this very same season, and not been punished in the same way. On the other hand, blatant penalties and red cards in our favour are not given. VAR doesn’t even check them. Whenever there is a possibility to rule out an Arsenal goal, it’s taken. I refuse to believe that they can be that incompetent. The evidence for corruption is overwhelming.
The club should actively work towards destroying PGMOL completely. Fuck them all off and bring in foreign referees. We have nothing to lose at this point. It’s worse than the Fergie era. There’s no point to this entire competition since it happens every single week, every single game.
Having the same incompetent referees in the VAR booth doubles the problem rather than fixing it. If you had truly independent people there, not other refs who feel sympathy for their mates, you could get somewhere. Is it me or every time I watch an Italian or Spanish match, which is admittedly not as often but I do, you don't see as many blatant mistakes and VAR seems to sort of work better and faster. Right? Or is it just in my head?
Gurgen I really hope the club is just taking its time to compile the biggest dossier ever compiled and that will be the beginning of the end of this PGMOL shit show.
We can't simply do nothing about it out of fear.
Agree. Call me a whiny little bitch or whatever, but it is impossible to win the league in these circumstances. It's just impossible. We are only 9 games in and they have already stolen 7-9 points from us. We have to do something, whatever it takes.
