Wolves Away - Sat 20th April @ 1930 PM GMT: Page 2 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Wolves Away - Sat 20th April @ 1930 PM GMT

Claudius

invisibleman18 who are the goal scorers who moved last two seasons we should have gotten?
(I agree we need one, but just testing)

Gazza M

Claudius ah, the old 'I didn't see any strikers on tolly wishlists, therefore who could the club have possibly found?' chesnut

invisibleman18

Claudius I didn't necessarily claim to have the answer but for the combined amount spent on Jesus and Havertz I can't believe there's noone in the world who could have scored more goals. Throw in Martinelli's total too. From Jesus's career stats it can hardly be surprising how little goal threat he offers for a centre forward.

Claudius

Gazza M let me help you out. Here are the biggest forwards who moved last year so you have a reasonable solution space
Kane
Neymar
Kolo Muani
Hojlund
Johnson (Spurs)
Mané
Doku
Balogun
Jackson, Nicholas
Dembele
Ramos
Mahrez
Asensio
Messi
Benzema
Loans (Lukaku, Werner).

goon

I think rather than signing bonafide goal scorers you sign players who have the attributes to score lots of goals in your system.

Qwiss

goon I think you need a track record of scoring goals too. I just don't think we have any real track record of unearthing players and specifically attackers under this transfer team. I'd be very wary of signing anyone who hasn't put up decent numbers in their career unless they are very young.

QuincyAbeyie

Claudius why are you filtering your search on players who have moved? This presumes that players who haven't moved this summer couldn't have been bought.

Claudius

invisibleman18 I didn’t say you have the answer. We all spend a lot of time wishlisting players because we love the club and want to enjoy that feeling of winning a title. I just put that list of forwards who actually moved so we can have some kind of boundary for a discussion. You know I love Mbappé, but that’s a pipe dream. That group of players actually moved last year. They were largely available for us to improve the squad with.

awooga83

invisibleman18 yeah I think the people whose job is it's to unearth players are better positioned to know the wider talent pool. But to your point I'm certain there are players out there who have a better goal scoring output then Havertz or Jesus and I'm not even talking at the elite tier but we allocated resources to those players over that so we have contributed to recruiting players who aren't helping us address the weaknesses in the squad.

Claudius

QuincyAbeyie we already have a vibrant Wish list thread. Here I want a practical discussion “given the universe of forwards who moved, what could Edu have done better?”

QuincyAbeyie

Claudius but what Edu could've done better isn't limited to those who moved, so it's not a good exercise in what he should've/could've done.

Qwiss

Claudius why is it only forwards who moved? There are players who didn't move who we could have signed too.

Also you forget to put Gyökeres on your list, who apparently we are after this summer and will cost probably 4-5 times what he went for last year. And if we take your question about the last 2 seasons then you could include Isak and Sesko who are on our short list too if the rumours are to be believed.

goon

Qwiss

Yeah, ideally you find someone who does both, Isak is probably a decent example. And anyone who has those traits is likely to have some sort of goal scoring record unless they're really young.

But I'd be weary of signing players purely based on their goal record. The pool of strikers or wingers who've got a great goalscoring record is quite small, and the number of those from that pool who'd be able to maintain it here is even smaller. If a forward player can near enough guarantee you 20+ league goals a season you're talking min 100m, Just count the ones you already have in the PL, Haaland, Salah, maybe Son?

Martinelli btw would be among the top of my targets for players with loads of potential to score goals. A 22yr old who has in the past scored 15 npg in the league. It's insane to advocate 'binning him' rather than finding ways to get him into goalscoring positions.

Claudius

QuincyAbeyie well, then I can just say “you know what, Edu should’ve bought Osimhen, Vinny Jr or Kvaratshkelia last summer. They’re exactly what we need!!” But there is absolutely no evidence that they would’ve moved. Restricting to players that moved makes it easy to say “Ah! Edu really fucked up there. Neymar was available and we didn’t act”.

Claudius

Qwiss sir, I agree with everything you said

Gyokeres- I did a quick search and found about 20 names. He didn’t appear in any of the big publications’ transfer lists. But would include
2023 again I only did a quick search. Feel free to do same for 2022 names with guys like Isak.
other positions? Same. Feel free to expand.

QuincyAbeyie

Qwiss why is it only forwards who moved? There are players who didn't move who we could have signed too.

No, apparently because if we start talking about players who haven't moved we must say we should've signed Mbappe and Haaland.

QuincyAbeyie

Claudius and there's absolutely no evidence that the players that have moved would've moved here, maybe they would've all refused. So we can't use your list as "evidence" either.

I won't respond to you trying to be ridiculous by mentioning Vinny.

Qwiss

Claudius I didn't mean just forward, I meant why only the ones who moved. Take Solanke as an example, we could have signed him last summer but he didn't move. Not pushing for him, just an example.

Claudius

QuincyAbeyie 🙄🙄
Qwiss, I suggested players who moved only because it’s easy to judge the managers. If you have a way to dileanate amongst the players who didn’t move - who was a feasible/actionabe move versus not, then absolutely please include them. Then we can fairly assess Edu without it being a wish list style discussion.

Qwiss

goon But I'd be weary of signing players purely based on their goal record.

I'd be the same. Its why I'm not interested in the likes of Solanke and still a bit wary of Watkins even though I'd take him. Prefer Toney over both if its an English striker as I think in football terms he'd be the right fit. Obviously it seems personality wise not so much.

But I'd be weary of signing players purely based on their goal record. The pool of strikers or wingers who've got a great goalscoring record is quite small, and the number of those from that pool who'd be able to maintain it here is even smaller. If a forward player can near enough guarantee you 20+ league goals a season you're talking min 100m, Just count the ones you already have in the PL, Haaland, Salah, maybe Son?

Well I don't think we are going to sign anyone in that bracket unless its Osimhen. And that looks very unlikely too. We need to get someone a tier below and for it to be such a good fit they become that guy. A bit like Salah himself.

goon Martinelli btw would be among the top of my targets for players with loads of potential to score goals. A 22yr old who has in the past scored 15 npg in the league. It's insane to advocate 'binning him' rather than finding ways to get him into goalscoring positions.

Yeah I agree. I don't see a huge need for a new winger at all unless people leave. Saka needs more rest but thats something Jesus can offer as a utility forward if we sign a striker. We really need someone added to the front line who's a real difference maker. Right now the big weakness is at CF. Not just in numbers but in creating space and occupying defenders. The move to Havertz has added a little more of that but we need someone who can do that and consistently be a real goal threat too. Teams need to be afraid to double up on the wings because we have threats through the middle.

Qwiss

Claudius we don't need some weird system, we can just discuss it like normal people. Or even discuss it without saying "it needs to be that guy". I don't have a scouting network, the club does, its not unreasonable to ask them to find quality players before its obvious to a few guys who watch games on TV and talk on a forum about it.

QuincyAbeyie

I'm glad you're rolling your eyes at that logic, because it's the only appropriate reaction.

To put it in extremely simple terms: If the question you want to answer is "Did Edu fuck up?" you can't pick out a small list of players, say that it's easier to just look at those players, say that you don't want any of them, and on that basis conclude that he didn't fuck up. All you can do with that information is to conclude that he didn't fuck up on any of the players you mentioned. So like you say, it's a much easier exercise. Just not particularly useful.

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