Arsenal v Sevilla Wed Nov 8 20 PM GMT KO: Page 10 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Arsenal v Sevilla Wed Nov 8 20 PM GMT KO

Don Pacifico

One other thing - there was a good quote from Trossard about his goal where he said he knew Jorginho was going to play that pass for Saka. I think it's worth acknowledging that the way Jorginho plays is based relationships and understanding with his teammates. He only joined in January and hasn't played that much so I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest it takes time to see the best in him.

Funnily enough, from a limited sample size, I actually think him and Havertz have a good understanding and there were moments against Newcastle where that relationship may have had greater impact if Havertz wasn't still finding his feet/gaining in confidence (etc.).

daredevil

goon

It's genuinely one of the silliest criticisms around. Something that's clearly not a positive, like playing it safe or passing it around aimlessly is somehow construed as instructions from the manager. Can you imagine a manager telling his players, please do not play forward accurate passes, play it sideways and take the pace out of the attack. Also, don't dribble and beat your man, I want you to turn back at every opportunity and pass the ball backwards. It's so stupid. The manager setups the framework, the players capabilities dictate the outcomes.

I was saying it during the game, we've made major changes to our entire passing block. Zinchenko, Partey, Xhaka and Odegaard played most games last season. Yesterday, we had Tomiyasu, Jorginho, Rice and Havertz. How well we build up play and recycle possession is dictated less by instruction and more by the capabilities of the new incumbents. It's going to take a while for the new players to give us what we saw last season, because Xhaka/Partey was one of the best midfield partnerships we've ever had and upgrading that was always going to take time. If you thought we we were going to easily upgrade them, as most on here thought, it's your expectations were out of wack.

QuincyAbeyie

daredevil If you thought we we were going to easily upgrade them, as most on here thought, it's your expectations were out of wack.

You're talking as Havertz not being a brilliant midfielder has proved how wrong people were, lol. Like... If not even Havertz can replace him, then nobody can?

You also said our football "isn't bad, it's just cautious" so you clearly see Coombs's point, you're just in disagreement of whether what we lose in attack is worth it or not for whatever defensive stability we gain.

If Arsenal's goal isn't to win the title this season then it's fine that things take time. But if it is, then you need to plan for that. Signings don't just happen to us, the club makes them.

goon

QuincyAbeyie You also said our football "isn't bad, it's just cautious" so you clearly see Coombs's point, you're just in disagreement of whether what we lose in attack is worth it or not for whatever defensive stability we gain.

The big misconception is that the control gained is designed to be at the cost of attacking threat. It's understandable I guess because that's what we're seeing, but as @daredevil said, I think the assumption that what we're seeing is the intended result is misguided.

In reality, more control should mean more possession, a bigger field tilt, sustained periods of attacking threat and ultimately more chances and goals. What we're seeing at the moment is an adjustment period. City and Liverpool at their best had total control of games while sustaining huge attacking threat, that's the dream.

Worth noting that Liverpool went through a similar transition on their path to becoming a 90+ point team. Their games stopped being end to end and they bossed games from start to finish.

daredevil

QuincyAbeyie

Havertz is one part of problem, Rice is the other, despite the latter being a brilliant midfielder. The other problem is Zinchenko is being rotated with Tomiyasu. So that's three players who are immediate downgrades on passing ability than the three that played last season. That's not even including Jorginho.

goon

Don Pacifico

Not to be a 'I've been to a game snob' but funnily enough it was when I went to the Wolves game at the back end of last season that I sat up and noted what Jorginho brings. His constant movement, awareness, and general ability to dictate is a huge strength. He's definitely a progressive passer at his best and moves the ball into dangerous areas.

He's been below par this season I think, not as progressive and has struggled to dictate in the same way, but yesterday was more like what you'd expect.

I actually disagree with those who think he has been a poor signing, I think you'd struggle to find a better backup for the 6 position.

Sicario2 - Tier 1

goon agree with this and think Jorg will be much better suited playing in the CL than Prem where he has more time on the ball.

If we signed him from Napoli or Roma I think he would get a lot easier ride here.

Don Pacifico

goon don't know if anyone else saw it but there was a mildly humourous moment after he got subbed off, where he walked round the pitch and stopped in Sevilla's technical area to give instructions to the players. Hung round for at least a minute or so barking orders.

FEBravo

Having been to the game I sort of agree with Don. But you can see why is not suited to the premier league anymore - but for the CL it’s perfect. There was a funny moment when Kai didn’t fuck it up totally and shot just wide and Jorginho went straight to him to give him a pep talk like “that’s it, see keep going!”. You can see his lack of confidence and being shit overall is affecting everyone. Every single move he (Harvetz) fucks it up.

The other thing I noticed is we are reluctant to go in behind. Most of the times someone makes a run the pass is not made. Think it confirms this low risk strategy for controlball. Something you can really notice live.

Also, Rice is a monster. It’s unbelievable. And Saliba is just a rolls Royce at the back.

Don Pacifico

FEBravo the only thing I'd add (and I promise I'm not trying to make excuses!) is that if Arteta is having to encourage our wingers to make more runs, is that part of the problem for our midfield if there aren't the options available? I can't honestly say I've paid attention to whether or they are doing that as much but it's a consideration.

Burnwinter

goon I've just posted about this "caution" thing in the tactics thread. I think it's more about sacrificing some game state advantages to control match tempo over 90 minutes, coupled with a reduced average quality of actions in attack if anything.

Based on aggregate stats we seems to be passing just as much and just as progressively with possession just as high up the pitch or even higher, and with more of it, and taking on as many carries and 1-on-1s, etc as ever. I based this on the FBRef aggregate stats we are posting for this season versus last, for passing and possession.

Goals and assists are well down but I think it's two things: a quality and form issue up front, and game state effects.

I do think there must have been some quite joined up and carefully communicated thinking from Arteta and his staff about the XI's use of energy over 90 minutes—you can call it "caution" but it's not quite the right word. We are visibly not charging out of the blocks as we did last season.

I guess there's one other major issue, which is that we are mentally comparing this side to our best form last season, and not our overall season-long form.

Qwiss

Burnwinter yeah I think a lot of it is about energy conservation too. Both in game and more long term. We played at a pace last season that ended up not being sustainable. Hopefully Artetas plan is to ramp it up again in the business end of the season.

QuincyAbeyie

Qwiss yeah I think a lot of it is about energy conservation too. Both in game and more long term. We played at a pace last season that ended up not being sustainable.

I don't agree with this tbh, which is probably why I'm not much of a fan of what we're doing with our play style this season.

The way I see it, we played the same XI every single game we could until we broke down last season. Some said the rest of our players weren't good enough to slot in so there was no alternative. I disagreed with that, but at the very least I don't think you can just not rotate at all and then conclude that the play style isn't sustainable. There's more than one variable here.

I hoped the players bought this summer were bought with the intention of doing what we did last season, but with the added benefit of resting players so we wouldn't break down in the business end of the season.

Suffice it to say, that's not the plan. I hope we gel eventually, but if the intention is to challenge this season I think it needs to happen soon.

Burnwinter

Qwiss It has to be this. Rising injuries, jadedness and collapsing morale second half of last season ended up the determining narrative. Bolstering the depth, durability and athleticism of the squad, greater rotation, and cooling off our gung-ho tactical posture are the only real responses—especially with the return to Europe.

All that seems to be happening. Not sure why anyone would think there's no direction involved and it's all a by-product of personnel changes.

Coombs

goon no reason to mention that unless that isn't what Arteta has been asking of them previously, no?

goon

Coombs

Because it had to be reinforced? I'd like to think it's a pretty foundational element of coaching. Especially when players lack confidence or form to do one of the most difficult things in football.

All I know is playing with quick, direct wingers was a feature of our game last season. I know that all of our wide targets (Raphinha, Neto, Mudryk) have been pacey and direct. The idea that we want them so that they can pass it back to Gabriel and Saliba is a little absurd.

Qwiss

Burnwinter unfortunately its not really helping with the injuries. I wonder if there has been a change in the training and conditioning in the hopes of improving the balance as well that has potentially backfired. Or maybe we've just been unlucky. Its got to be part of Artetas thinking around the season though and its probably an area he needs to develop as still a relatively young/new manager.

I think the personnel changes are related though, they are obviously part of his plan in terms of playing in new ways and in his hopes for the season. Obviously Timbers situation largely scuppered that and is really unfortunate but whatever else about Rice and Havertz they are both players with a history of being able to face full seasons, Havertz in particular having dealt with the CL and PL fixture congestion.

Coombs

goon what's absurd is your argument style. We aren't coming out the blocks like we did last year almost every game, and that's by design. We're obviously prioritizing solidity and control over cut-and-thrust attacks, and that's impacting Saka, Martinelli, and Odegaard's respective games negatively. Statistically and otherwise, this is really not up for debate.

goon

Coombs

Sure, there’s been a change of style and some associated teething issues. But the post where you randomly dug me out mid game while I was minding my own business didn’t say any of that. It implied that the instruction was for Martinelli and Saka to play it safe.

Gazza M

Coombs before this sevilla game this week, Ferdinand was talking to mikel and flagged the lack of chances we were creating, and arteta pointed to a lack of fast starts as one of the reasons. again, it hints that there have been some unforeseen pitfalls of the changes he's made that may have caught him offguard

Coombs

goon hey, I was only responding to your post a while back that scorned my suggestion that Martinelli was being reined in. I still think he has been.

Gazza M

I don't think it's been done by design, I think arteta didn't fully appreciate the value of what he had last season, and started messing with the plumbing which has resulted in some unintended consequences. not very good management imo

banduan

Gazza M the messing about with the plumbing is definitely by design. Mikel wants us to be harder to beat, but in doing so, along with adjusting to the personel change it's meant our buildup has been affected.

« Previous Page