Declan "Deccers" Rice: Page 69 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Declan "Deccers" Rice

QuincyAbeyie

Gazza M i dont even think theres any arsenal fan that rates vieira ahead of the names youve mentioned there.

I think there are many that do. Here's one:

Bring Back Kerrea Gilbert Vieira is the best midfielder I've ever seen.

Gazza M

there really isnt. and id query if BBKG meant at arsenal, in the epl, or in the flesh, for context. calling vieira the best of all time is obvious hyperbole

Klaus

Gazza M
He's up there to be fair. You ask Henry or Zidane and they'd likely tell you that Vieira was the best midfielder they ever played with. Few who watched both of them play would put Busquets ahead of him.

It's a bit like Fernando Redondo: if he had emerged today he would have been so far ahead of everyone else, but Redondo didn't just play in the pre-Youtube era: most of his career was in an era that was pre-Internet as we think of it today. Most of it was static web pages. Forums were barely a thing back when he pulled off that backheel skill against United in Champions League. And even then he was a defensive midfielder. Most people would struggle to remember ten significant defensive mid performances, but they remember goals.

You rarely see Redondo talked about today, but he was better than all the names that were mentioned above except Zidane and Pirlo. Career didn't last as long, he wasn't as televised, and he didn't have an individual cult following that dubbed music over his every touch, but he operated in a wholly different tier relative to his peers. There was only one of him and only one of Vieira, which is another reason they've faded a bit from memory I reckon. All the Barca midgets by contrast created a very sad template that ended up plaguing football for two decades.

QuincyAbeyie

Gazza M there really isnt

There are literally two people right after you said this as well. 😆

Dom I don't know why you'd include Zidane or Iniesta since they played a different position

Because they'd be mentioned if someone talked about the best midfielders of all time.

Klaus All the Barca midgets by contrast created a very sad template that ended up plaguing football for two decades.

Damn, didn't realize it was possible to watch Iniesta play and feel this way.

Lukazan So if you never saw Vieira, you missed alot of Henry too? When did you start supporting, I feel like I remember you mentioning before - 2006?

Yeah, around then. The earliest memory I have of watching a match is the return leg against Villarreal.

Dom

I don't know why you'd include Zidane or Iniesta since they played a different position, but I rate Vieira higher than the anyone else in that list except Pirlo.

Gazza M

QuincyAbeyie lol. OK you may have a point. I didn't realise the vieira derangement syndrome ran so deep for gooners for a certain age. I dont want this to spark a 'what is a midfielder really' debate either, but comparing vieira to Zidane or iniesta, or even busquets and pirlo is always tough to do. youd really just be comparing trophy hauls and overall impact on the game of football

Mirth

QuincyAbeyie Damn, didn't realize it was possible to watch Iniesta play and feel this way.

I won’t speak for Klaus but I don’t see that as a criticism of Iniesta but rather the desire for other teams to copy that style and end up creating a poor imitation. Hell, even Barca ended up parodying themselves until Luis Enrique turned up.

Dom

"I never watched Vieira live but dudes on Reddit never have him (or any midfielder that played before 2008) in their 'all-time great midfielder' list". The mistake here is that there was a flood of new fans (mostly Americans) that popped up after 2008 and for many of the most vocal ones football didn't exist before tiki taka.

Gazza M or even busquets

I rate Zidane and Pirlo higher than Vieira but I would choose Vieira over Busquets every day of the week. There's nothing 'deranged' about this. Vieira was an extraordinary talent and one of the most naturally gifted athletes I've seen on a football pitch.

Gazza M

Dom the point about pre-internet supporters is understandable. I am from that older cohort after all. by the same token we can also be guilty of rose tinted memories of the late 90s/early 2000s, and what a 'real midfielder' looks like. vieira started looking lost once the 3-man midfield era kicked in around 2005, partly due to the tactical evolution, partly due to the mileage in his legs by that stage. he was reduced to being a pure sitting midfielder and wasnt nearly as effective once his physical gifts waned, and we're talking late 20s here, not his mid 30s. its hard to say what a neutral over-35 year old fan opinion on vieira vs busquets would be as theyre products of different eras, but i would wager it would be 70-30 in biscuit guys favour

QuincyAbeyie

Dom "I never watched Vieira live but dudes on Reddit never have him (or any midfielder that played before 2008) in their 'all-time great midfielder' list". The mistake here is that there was a flood of new fans (mostly Americans) that popped up after 2008 and for many of the most vocal ones football didn't exist before tiki taka.

are you annoyed that I haven't watched Vieira? Since you're paraphrasing me but bringing up Redditors. I'm not making a single claim about Vieira's quality, just observing what I read about him on here compared to elsewhere. I personally haven't found a publication (non-Arsenal) that has Vieira above Iniesta and Modric. It might be because of "pre-Youtube" but players like Matthaus, Suares, Gullit, Rijkaard, Platini and Socrates are often in the discussion. I look at old Ballon d'Or votes (which are often ridiculous of course) and he only made the list one time, where he placed 15th.

I think it's natural for Arsenal supporters to rate Arsenal legends higher than what other supporters do, obviously. The reason I compared him to Henry is because he's the same age as Vieira but doesn't have that discrepancy between how Arsenal supporters talk about him and how he's rated in general.

Dom

QuincyAbeyie Neutrals don't seem to mention Vieira in the same tier as Zidane, Iniesta, Modric, Busquets, Pirlo etc.

I bet in 2035 very few people mention Busquets and Modric as among the best midfielders of all time and then a 40 something does a sad face like I've been doing over the last couple of days.

Mirth

QuincyAbeyie Neutrals don't seem to mention Vieira in the same tier as Zidane, Iniesta, Modric, Busquets, Pirlo etc.

I find it interesting that almost all of those players mainly did their best work in a 3 man midfield - in other words, they were specialists and excelled at a few aspects of the game. Meanwhile Vieira often did the work of 3 men on his own and was a much more rounded player.

Coombs

This conversation makes me think of the final sword fight at the end of Rob Roy.

Qwiss

QuincyAbeyie ask any neutral over 40 for their all time PL XI and 90% of them will have Vieira in there.

Gazza M i dont even think theres any arsenal fan that rates vieira ahead of the names youve mentioned there.

I certainly do. He's absolutely as good or better than most of those IMO. Zidane no, the rest you could argue about.

Gazza M its hard to say what a neutral over-35 year old fan opinion on vieira vs busquets would be as theyre products of different eras, but i would wager it would be 70-30 in biscuit guys favour

Maybe but I don't think that tells you much. Busquets is not the same era as Vieira and was part of a historic Barca team. I think a lot of players on that team have their legacies enhanced by the fact peak Messi was in the team.

Burnwinter Rice is probably one of the few modern midfielders who'd thrive in a 2 man midfield. He has the engine to be that box to box monster in a 2 or a 3.

Dom

Gazza M vieira started looking lost once the 3-man midfield era kicked in around 2005, partly due to the tactical evolution, partly due to the mileage in his legs by that stage. he was reduced to being a pure sitting midfielder and wasnt nearly as effective once his physical gifts waned, and we're talking late 20s here, not his mid 30s

Vieira left Arsenal and got to a World Cup final, won Serie A with Juventus and then multiple league titles with Inter.

Ironically, Busquets' decline came quicker than Vieira's. Spain were dumped out of the World Cup by Russia and earlier that year Barcelona were hammered 4-0 by a mediocre Liverpool team. 2018's the year Busquets already looked past his best and he was 29. He was an effective system midfielder but I don't rate him anywhere near the likes of Pirlo, Vieira, Modric, Xavi, etc.

Burnwinter

As a full professional has Rice even played in a two man midfield? Physically and technically, he's become a machine in each aspect of his repertoire, and he's had world-class "pictures" since before we signed him.

Rice's role is so different and so much more prescriptive we won't get the chance to see if he has Vieira's all-round chops week after week. There's no doubt for me he has less inborn aggression and a lower ceiling on the ball, but he's not weak in any aspect.

Some spectacular achievement like an eye-catching best on ground in a Champions League final or title decider could weigh the scales. Bring it on, Dec.

In the current squad it's Big Gabi who's closest to "Mr Arsenal" status. That's

banduan

This fuss only came about because someone made the claim "best midfielder of all time" when the term describes at least half a dozen different positions.

Big Willie

QuincyAbeyie The reason I compared him to Henry is because he's the same age as Vieira but doesn't have that discrepancy between how Arsenal supporters talk about him and how he's rated in general.

Henry was the best player in the world for a few seasons yet gets talked about as some kind of joke to most of the younger stats obsessed generation who had not seen him play back then. Even R9 gets talked about as if he wasn't one of the best players of all time and not on the level of the likes of Lewandoski and Suarez. R9 not getting the ratings he deserves because he didn't win a CL or Thierry for not scoring in a final etc. We just have to admit, we're getting old and these new generation who did not experience things back then just wouldn't understand.

And I'm not hating on newer fans either, new or not, it's just natural to respect (due to what you hear or seeing the odd match, vid etc) without really rating a player as highly as those who watched week in week out at the time. Especially if you haven't seen much of a player and there isn't much quality footage available to research etc. Hell even now looking back at some old PL footage from the early 2000s, the picture quality looks crazy shit, like no way did it look like that back then did it?

Aside from Messi and Ronaldo (similar to how Pele and Maradonna were known GOATS) future generations would probably overlook everyone else including the likes of Xavi, Pirlo etc and say they were good/great players but Adam Smith (from Brazil btw) is on another level to all those guys. Though with so much footage (and HD footage at that) available now, younger fans may have more room to research properly at that point if they really want to see so it may not necessarily go that way.

But if they have the hardly any footage of past eras like my generation did, or limited and not qood quality footage of past eras like @QuincyAbeyie's generation did then I can't see past the same shit happening with players in current gens being rated much higher than those of the past. It's natural.

RocktheCasbah

QuincyAbeyie the Ballon d'Or lists are funny. For me, for example I don't just think Thierry was the best player on the planet over the years 2002-06, I don't think it was particularly close. He was on another planet.

And yet he only placed in the top 3 of the list twice in that period, runner up to Pavel Nedved in 2003 and then third behind Cannavaro & Buffon (the last time a defender won the award stats fans) in 2006.

Arsenal knocked Juventus out of the Champions League that (post Vieira) year, but fell short in the final against Barcelona, with Cannavaro and Buffon exacting max revenge in the World Cup final.

I'm pretty sure had France won that final, Thierry retires a Ballon d'Or winner, unless they found a reason to give it to Zidane instead.

I think the PL was looked down upon back then - if you read Dennis Bergkamp's Stillness And Speed book, this viewpoint really comes through there as well (he did it England, but couldn't in Italy) and so it was about European achievement for PL clubs. And sadly for Patrick Vieira's Arsenal, it didn't really happen.

If I'd ever had kids though, I'd definitely be telling me grandkids about Patrick Vieira.

Dom

QuincyAbeyie It might be because of "pre-Youtube" but players like Matthaus, Suares, Gullit, Rijkaard, Platini and Socrates are often in the discussion

Well, that's a fair point but Vieira - between 2002 to 2005 - was absolutely seen as a pioneering player by other PL fans and pundits at the time. He was one of the driving forces for Arsenal winning three league titles, France winning Euro 2000 and Arsenal going an entire league season unbeaten. He was constantly being linked to Juventus, AC Milan, Inter Milan and Real Madrid (even Man Utd if I remember correctly) so the notion that Arsenal fans are exaggerating his worth is false.

A lot of snobbery existed towards English football football during that period, particularly towards Arsenal who were a brutish English club and also had little European pedigree compared to AC Milan, Juventus and Bayern Munich (most of the players you mentioned played for these clubs).

QuincyAbeyie

Big Willie Adam Smith (from Brazil btw)

Accurate 😂

Big Willie Even R9 gets talked about as if he wasn't one of the best players of all time

Wait, so Sicario tricked me when he said Jesus in 2022 was playing like prime R9?

Big Willie

QuincyAbeyie Wait, so Sicario tricked me when he said Jesus in 2022 was playing like prime R9?

Lol that one can only be explained if he started watching football in 2017. Or if he was on the wind up.

But since he apparently wasn't and has been watching football since '92, I can not attempt to explain what was going on his mind to make such claims.

Gazza M

Qwiss Maybe but I don't think that tells you much. Busquets is not the same era as Vieira and was part of a historic Barca team. I think a lot of players on that team have their legacies enhanced by the fact peak Messi was in the team.

I was going to mention this. the added sheen of playing for real or barca adds to these players' reputations on the continent, compared to vieira spending his prime years at a comparably unfashionable club in terms of European pedigree.

QuincyAbeyie

Qwiss ask any neutral over 40 for their all time PL XI and 90% of them will have Vieira in there

definitely not disputing that. I don't really think many typically mentioned "all-time great" midfielders played in England.

Gurgen

A bit silly we are having this debate. Vieira was a generational player who was courted by the likes of Real Madrid every year. Also by far the best player at the 2006 World Cup in the twilight of his career, contrary to some Zidane and Pirlo myths. Rice is great but he has some way to go to be in the same conversation.

Gazza M

Gurgen Zidane was also deeper in the twilight of his career in 2006 tbf

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