Kai Havertz: Page 16 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Kai Havertz

Mirth

Sicario2 - Tier 1 it’s literally the 2nd game of the season.

I’m not saying he’s been playing well - think I’ve given him a 6/10 for the first 2 games but it’s pretty obvious that he’s tactically been an asset to our team shape already and he’s also got the ability to step up further

Mirth

HomeSteak Havertz isn’t being used like Elneny or Trossard. Look at how the team is set up!

There’s a reason he’s played nearly every minute including the community shield so far

Mirth

Sicario2 - Tier 1 why should I dwell on his time at Chelsea where the club was a car wreck and he was asked to play in another role.

Sicario2 - Tier 1

Mirth

Sounds like excuses. He’s been in the league 3 years whichever way you cut it and he costs £65m and in his prime, he should be showing us more even in 3 games.

I find it funny when a Havertz does minimal stuff (like run or win a header) he gets praised almost trying to push his negative traits under a carpet.

Thiago Silva also played for Chelsea in this period and comes out with a lot of credit as a top CB.

Truly top players can find ways to shine no matter the circumstances. Is Havertz one of them? Not so sure

Bottom line, no matter how many miles he runs or how many headers he wins like a peak David Batty, ultimately he will be judged on goals and assists. He’s an offensive player ffs.

Mirth

Sicario2 - Tier 1 Thiago Silva also played for Chelsea in this period and comes out with a lot of credit as a top CB.

Truly top players can find ways to shine no matter the circumstances. Is Havertz one of them? Not so sure

I’m glad you went through the entire Chelsea squad only to pick Thiago Silva. Now pick an attacking player at Chelsea that has excelled recently or just look at how fast Raheem Sterling regressed.

It’s not true that top players can shine regardless of circumstance. There’s plenty of examples where that’s not true - starting from Dennis Bergkamp and Thierry Henry onwards.

And yes, ultimately he will be judged with what he does on the ball as much as off it but 3 games is not the sample size for that. 3 months? Maybe.

Qwiss

He's been poor so far but its very early days. Arteta seems determined to play him into form so hopefully things click for him soon. He did manage a decent pass and a pot shot that if it had gone in would have swung perceptions a lot.

He's just so slow and awkward on the ball at the moment that I don't understand why Arteta thought he was a good fit. He must think he can iron out those issues. I just hope it doesn't take too long.

I want to see how he looks when we play some better sides. Maybe his battling will be worth more against United in a couple of weeks.

mdgoonah41

my assumption when we signed him is that he was being bought to replace xhaka. and then my assumption is that rice was being bought to be the single pivot, replacing partey (assuming partey would be sold or phased out due to his increasing age and his off the field stuff), and that the goal was to play rice-havertz-odegaard as the midfield 3

playing him in advanced positions just isnt a good use of his abilities, imo,. hes not a clinical finisher. given his size and engine, he seems like he'll fit best as a deeper midfielder who can get between the lines and put our attackers in good positions, and he can do plenty of defensive work and pressing when we dont have the ball. if partey stays though, it puts us in a weird position. playing partey at RB, even just to invert him, doesnt seem great to me. we're now in a position where we have to try and shoehorn guys into weird positions because we have a lot of expensive players that need to play.

Coombs

If Xhaka were doing exactly what Havertz is, he'd be praised. It's just because people see him as an attacker, they're going to judge him on end product, which isn't fair because that's not where he's playing on the pitch.

Sicario2 - Tier 1

Coombs

Which Xhaka are you referring to? Because the one from last season was scoring and assisting

Burnwinter

Sicario2 - Tier 1 Surely the telling point here is that Arteta made Xhaka look half decent after he'd been part misfit, part villain and part laughing stock for years … in fact you hated him yourself.

Mirth

Sicario2 - Tier 1 after 6 seasons at the club…..

I’m not even Team Kai on this - my preference for the start of the season was a Partey-Rice-Odegaard midfield till things settled but a) the judgements are too absolute in 3 games b) to me it’s pretty clear that Havertz is playing a different role to a traditional number 10 like Trossard and ESR. There’s a big expectation gap here.

Burnwinter

Relaxed about how he's going so far.

This is worth a re-read:

https://www.cannonstats.com/p/kai-havertz-the-debrief

Havertz' latest stats are all over the place because he's being rated against attacking mids after a season of weirdness at Chelsea. However, this analysis cautiously interprets him as a "normal" finisher coming off a bad spell, not a player such as Jesus with semi-permanent wobbles.

Havertz has a very distinct persona from our other options where he plays. He is a 90 minute athlete with craft off the ball. He's imperfect defensively, but aggressive, physical and durable. He's strong in the air and becomes our only properly tall player ahead of the defence. He's thought of as coachable, has a reputation for stepping up in big matches, and very likely has upside on recent form.

We have a number of possibilities at 8 on the left including Rice, Smith Rowe and Trossard depending, so it's good Havertz is dissimilar to all of them.

After the shambles at the business end of last season, it makes sense we'd want an extra tough nut who can run hard, and his attributes should make us less predictable too.

At £65m, people understandably want Havertz to have an obvious best position and "weapons", but it'd be absurd to give up on him after three solid run-outs. He'll need to find form, create and score as time passes. Arteta has a few related problems to solve, from whether Partey and Rice both play, to the left fullback position, to how the brilliant Trossard gets minutes.

Side note, but Martinelli had a big dip in output when Jesus didn't play last season, and Jesus isn't in the side now either, so I wouldn't be quick to blame any Gabi disconnect on Kai.

Sicario2 - Tier 1

Mirth

Fair enough.

I wrote Willian off after 3 games and was proven right, let’s see with the German.

QuincyAbeyie

Mirth

Do you honestly think the reason some prefer Trossard is because he'd win more duels? Does the fact that he wouldn't automatically mean we'd be worse with him in the team?

Mirth

QuincyAbeyie obviously not. The reason you’d want Trossard is because you’d want him to play that role differently. My point is Havertz is executing his role in the way Arteta wants it to be played in which case this discussion is less about Havertz and more about the tactics

lorddulaarsenal

Havertz occupying defences the way he does also opens up opportunities for others.

I think he gets a bad time because of his languid style, but he actually works hard, covers more distance than most and because he keeps things simple and makes things look easy people get the wrong impression of him. He’s going to thru e here

Big Willie

Well.... who knows, maybe Havertz really is a lot more hardworking that hes given credit for.

lorddulaarsenal I think he gets a bad time because of his languid style, but he actually works hard, covers more distance than most and because he keeps things simple and makes things look easy people get the wrong impression of him

That's a lot of the same stuff that used to be said about Ozil way back when to justify that he wasn't lazy. Maybe the comparisons made between him and Ozil is lazy from those who make them due to the way they stroll around the pitch and the fact they are both tall German forwards.

https://www.dreamteamfc.com/c/news-gossip/211361/the-surprising-mesut-ozil-stat-that-proves-hes-not-at-all-lazy/

Laziness is one of the most common criticisms levelled at Ozil. The 28-year-old's body language can make him appear detached and disinterested, and his tendency to throw up his arms in frustration when he loses possession frequently causes consternation among fans and pundits.
Arsene Wenger, meanwhile, insists Ozil's body language is deceptive. "He is a guy who works much harder than people think, but his body language goes against him sometimes," he said last season.
But what do the stats say? According to Premier League tracking data, Ozil covered 329km last season - second only to Nacho Monreal at Arsenal. His total of 1759 high-intensity sprints was only bettered by Monreal, Alexis Sanchez and Hector Bellerin.
When worked out by average per game, Ozil comes third only to Monreal and Granit Xhaka, who covers an average of 10.19 kilometres each Premier League match.
Alexis Sanchez, who looks like a busy player and has been described as being like a Duracell bunny for his work rate, only registers an average of 8.52 kilometres per match this season – a full 1.45 kilometres less than Ozil, who travels an average of 9.97 kilometres each match.

They are completely different players though. Ozil had an amazing final ball and and was great in the final third (aside from wanting to always pass rather than shoot). He got into great spaces around the pitch to help.pull players apart and get the ball to the forwards. Havertz is much better in the air, stronger in the challenge and find spaces inside the box for himself rather than in order to play others in.

I dont think Havertz is lazy, however an issue I have with him is he lacks an intensity in what he does. There is no real urgency in his play at all. Hopefully things start to click for him sooner rather than later because if not, hardworking or otherwise, the knives will really be out. That kind of pressure will swallow him whole.

Clrnc

He will need some time to come good. Not easy for our team to adapt to him and vice versa.

But the knives will certainly be out if he don't succeed here, given that in the same window plenty of great number 8s moved for lesser amount and has had great starts for their new club.

Kel Varnsen

He should obviously be given more time, but my worry is that our main competition is City. Not struggling teams like Man U, Liverpool, Chelsea etc. The margin for error is minimal, and I don't see how we can carry several "hard/solid workers" in the team and still keep up. We need 11 quality players on the pitch who all add value to the team. Not 8 quality players and 3 who are "ok".

Gazza M

Kel Varnsen this is true. we're aiming higher now. no title winning side in history had passengers in the starting 11, every player has to be hitting. we need danger, energy and creativity from that left 8 position. I'd personally like to see him do more on the ball. he has a good burst in him and elite ball control. I'd like to see him demanding the ball more in the middle third and driving with the ball to attract defenders. and also using a bit more nous to free himself. I noticed him running alot against palace, but he'd be running in such a way that he stayed marked most of the time, so the ball wouldn't find him. calling that 'occupying' is a pretty generous reading of this kind of contribution. sprinting into the box for the odd cutback, then waving your arms around when it doesn't come isn't enough either.

Burnwinter

Big Willie That's a lot of the same stuff that used to be said about Ozil way back when to justify that he wasn't lazy.

Yeah, the comparison I'd make is to (Abou) Diaby who's closer in height and also faced accusations of being lazy and unfocused. Meanwhile our own players would say he was the most difficult guy they'd ever faced one on one. Don't underestimate what four or six inches means when you're fighting for the ball with a guy all day, or wondering if you're going to get your wings clipped for taking Martinelli out of the game one too many times.

Havertz is doing well so far, there's a slight brutish, chaotic factor with him on the pitch when sometimes we'd run the risk of looking like synchronised swimmers last season.

RowJimmy

Gazza M no title winning side in history had passengers in the starting 11,

I doubt this is true, but I'm sure that many title winning sides had players who were struggling to find their role in the first two games of the year. This whole discussion is overblown and premature.

« Previous Page Next Page »