Mental strength across the squad

Sicario2 - Tier 1

Not really, never did I predict we would ‘definitively’ win the league this season like others.

You still think we have a chance which is mental in itself. As I said the day we drew with Southampton is the day it died. Rest of it is a formality. We can still finish strong though.

Big Willie

Sicario2 - Tier 1 You still think we have a chance which is mental in itself. As I said the day we drew with Southampton is the day it died. Rest of it is a formality. We can still finish strong though.

Bro you came back in Feb after our City/Everton/Brentford results after being away for months just to bemoan that we are now out of it. Then you disappear again only to return after the Liverpool/West Ham games to tell say we're out of it.

I mean thinking we have a chance isn't mental. It's the truth. It does look unlikely but not out of the realms of possibility. We are 4 points behind with 12 to play for. Cith have Brighton away, Everton away, Brentford away and Chelsea home. Not the easiest of fixtures for them and if they come through with 10-12 points then they'll have pipped us by 2 points. Look, they are on a great run, 10 or so games won on the bounce, which is the first time they broke 4 or 5 games this season. If they end up with a 14 game winning streak that is just a mental finish and they'd have probably pipped us anyways, whether those 2 draws against West Ham and Southampton came there or in our games against Newcastle/Brighton.

Pre Liverpool the hope was we could beat West Ham, Southampton, Wolves, Brighton, and Forest to get us to 88 whilst getting something out of one or two the Chelsea, Newcastle, Liverpool and City games. This under the assumption that City were to drop points going into the final stretch. It's disappointing that we dropped points in two games we should have won and just puts us in a position where we have no room for any slip ups whilst also relying on a slip up of City. It's just mad that they are on such a winning streak at this stage even though their form this season on a whole suggested they wouldn't.

We don't have a great chance of winning it, I'll admit, but to say it's over stinks of what you personally would call "loser attitude", "mentally weak" or some other similar OTT description. We have to continue going for it until it's mathematically impossible. Just in case they do slip up, we don't want to be in a position where we think "oh we could have done it but shit, I thought it was over".

RocktheCasbah

It's not necessarily related to mental strength, but my mate Gabs has a theory that Arteta operates on a very emotional line (I think we've all seen how that could be true) and perhaps that was fuelling us in the right way up until very recently. It seems at least possible that Arteta's emotions got the better of him at Liverpool (understandably) and the resulting draw has created a minor snowball that only derailed us for a short time, but enough time to let Manchester City in.

I think it's quite difficult to say from the outside who is mentally strong and who isn't, but I don't think any footballer gets to elite level football without being mentally tough, so it's a question of degrees.

Don Pacifico

RocktheCasbah Would definitely agree that Arteta appears to have found handling the 'favourites' tag a lot harder than being underdogs (as you'd expect). I think he's also been stuck between trying to manage the pressure whilst also trying to keep the squad hungry/competitive. His whole schtick is about relentless commitment, which doesn't help alleviate the pressure of a title challenge.

Qwiss

RocktheCasbah my mate Gabs has a theory that Arteta operates on a very emotional line (I think we've all seen how that could be true) and perhaps that was fuelling us in the right way up until very recently. It seems at least possible that Arteta's emotions got the better of him at Liverpool (understandably) and the resulting draw has created a minor snowball that only derailed us for a short time, but enough time to let Manchester City in.

I think I agree with your mate Gabs. We know we don't have the quality of City and Arteta had to really fire them team up at times. Eventually I think that emotion got too much when the league title looked to be really clearly in our grasp. I think thats understandable with an inexperienced manager and such a young squad. What is important is that they all learn from it and don't make the same mistake next time they are in that position.

Bring Back Kerrea Gilbert

I want him to learn to be tactically flexible when it calls for it. The way Pep did it against us.

goon

Very harsh to put Jesus in the wobbly category, I actually think he's one of our strongest players mentally and in terms of executing his role, as he always does.

I think it's hard to categorise in general because different players drop their level in different ways. Gabriel may go to ground, Partey may start playing loose passes, Saka and White may not be sharp enough pressing, Ode may play it too safe. Some of these are more noticeable than others.

There's also danger of putting too much value on mental strength vs other factors, I said before our collapse during the Europa League exit that our side is highly strung and therefore susceptible to being exposed when things are not quite right. We might put things down to pressure when it's more down to the system breaking down.

I guess my point is, I'm not worried about any of our players being a weak link from a mental perspective. I'd shove them all in the variable category.

Burnwinter

goon Very harsh to put Jesus in the wobbly category, I actually think he's one of our strongest players mentally and in terms of executing his role, as he always does.

That's great, but you know as well as I do that when you see him miss a couple of chances he's going to fluff a few more.

goon I said before our collapse during the Europa League exit that our side is highly strung and therefore susceptible to being exposed when things are not quite right. We might put things down to pressure when it's more down to the system breaking down.

I feel this is a decent example of one of those plausible-sounding things you say that's observably false if you were watching those matches. For example we were not troubled by squad issues or being highly strung against Southampton, Ramsdale just passed it to them for a goal in the first minute and we took it from there.

You can argue we were substantially weakened and it showed in the Liverpool and West Ham and matches, but equally not so much we shouldn't have been able to collar either of those matches at some stage during those super long periods we were at sea.

And especially all the midfielders out of the group I mentioned above were at fault at times, too.

It would be very, very hard to re-watch this sequence of matches where we surrendered dominant, leading positions, or gave up a hatful of goals to the worst side in the league, and not read in at least some psychological fragility.

goon

Burnwinter That's great, but you know as well as I do that when you see him miss a couple of chances he's going to fluff a few more.

Isn't missing chances just a trait of his though? Even when he's scoring and playing brilliantly he's missing chances.

Burnwinter I feel this is a decent example of one of those plausible-sounding things you say that's observably false if you were watching those matches. For example we were not troubled by squad issues or being highly strung against Southampton, Ramsdale just passed it to them for a goal in the first minute and we took it from there.

You can argue we were substantially weakened and it showed in the Liverpool and West Ham and matches, but equally not so much we shouldn't have been able to collar either of those matches at some stage during those super long periods we were at sea.

And especially all the midfielders out of the group I mentioned above were at fault at times, too.

It would be very, very hard to re-watch this sequence of matches where we surrendered dominant, leading positions, or gave up a hatful of goals to the worst side in the league, and not read in at least some psychological fragility.

Nah you've misread my point, I don't disagree with anything you've said there and on the whole it's undeniable that pressure has taken it's toll. My point was that it makes it harder to pinpoint it down to specific players because of other factors, that's all. Nuance for life.

The only player I'd feel confident in saying is immune to pressure or even thrives off it, is Martinelli.

Burnwinter

goon Even when he's scoring and playing brilliantly he's missing chances.

"Missing lots of chances is just a trait of his" is a rather shifty way to describe a player who was famously crushed by the negative attention of his poor central performances at the World Cup in Russia, following which Tite dropped him from the Brazil squad until he sorted his game to play wide.

I don't think it'd be overkill to suggest that Jesus's capacity to finish presentable chances under pressure is the central psychological battle of his entire life, let alone his football career.

goon My point was that it makes it harder to pinpoint it down to specific players

Nah I'm pinpointing it: Zinchenko, Xhaka and Partey all share the following traits, they're above average age for our squad (with the former two clearly taking on leadership responsibilities) and they had all enjoyed widely celebrated seasons prior to this run of matches during which they mostly failed to show up. That's gonna wreck you.

banduan

Burnwinter Nah I'm pinpointing it: Zinchenko, Xhaka and Partey all share the following traits, they're above average age for our squad (with the former two clearly taking on leadership responsibilities) and they had all enjoyed widely celebrated seasons prior to this run of matches during which they mostly failed to show up.

bit harsh on Xhaka there.

Mirth

I don't think Nelson fits in the 'Unquestioned' bracket - his entire career has been focused on managers trying to get him to do on the pitch what he does in training.

RocktheCasbah

banduan especially as he wasn't even playing one of the matches we didn't show up in.

Burnwinter

RocktheCasbah Nor was Zinchenko, thought that was obvious. Sorry mate but even Xhaka's antics yesterday were counterproductive trash. He's no leader.

RocktheCasbah

Burnwinter if you say so. I think there's plenty in the Arsenal first team staff who will disagree with you though.

Clrnc

Burnwinter ignoring the antics, thought he was super yesterday. That block was worth a goal

Coombs

RocktheCasbah to be fair to Burns, he's been disagreeing with the Arsenal 1st team staff for the better part of a decade on this.

Burnwinter

RocktheCasbah Just as the club leaders who signed off on Martinelli's contract until 2027 would see him recording one of the most prolific seasons ever by an Arsenal winger and think: "oh, he's a very good player" …

We all have our opinions and tend to think they're correct.

Xhaka's two good half seasons have mainstreamed a touching redemption narrative, but it's a storyline that only exists in the first place because he's been a misfit. Since the World Cup his form has dropped off. He's been quite poor lately, and there's never a time I see him squaring up on the pitch and feel a burst of pride. I'm glad he finally turned in a decent performance at St James' Park, wish he could've done the same at Anfield.

RocktheCasbah he is absolutely one of the group's leaders

That's been the problem. When I say "Xhaka's not a leader" I don't mean "the dressing room doesn't regard him as a leader". I mean that he's not very good at it even though he's doing it.

My thread here has been about how the self-appointed leaders among our senior players have been a let down during the run-in—if you think they've all been great, good for you and I'll have some of whatever you're smoking.

RocktheCasbah

Coombs it's a little boring now. Nothing Xhaka did demonstrably lifted Newcastle yesterday, or had an adverse effect on our team. It may have been, in Joelinton's case that Xhaka actually managed to get him off his game, cos the guy did nothing apart from a couple of heavy challenges.

It's very obvious to me that Xhaka's position in the team is one which needs a summer upgrade, but it's equally obvious to me (and Cesc & Vieira discussed it with him post match on Tuesday) that whatever the opinion is of him here, he is absolutely one of the group's leaders.

Burnwinter

Clrnc That block was worth a goal

Fair play, that was a truly spectacular, game-changing intervention.

RocktheCasbah

Burnwinter Martinelli is 21, there's nothing wrong with calling him a very good player and not a great one now. You seem to labouring under a misapprehension that I don't rate the guy, but you're wrong. I just think that there are some pretty obvious rough edges to his game in need of smoothing over. Okay? Great.

I'm not going to engage with the rest of your post because your premise that Xhaka's only had two good half seasons is wrong. As you say yourself, everyone tends to think their opinion is correct and you're obviously deeply entrenched in your Xhaka as misfit narrative so there's no point going any further.

Burnwinter

RocktheCasbah I'm not going to engage with the rest of your post because your premise that Xhaka's only had two good half seasons is wrong.

Good, don't engage—if that's what handing out little digs and suggesting I'm stuck in my ways is supposed to be. I'm not even singling Xhaka out here, as you'd know if you were reading me for something other than getting your back up over a keyword related to one of your idées fixes.

After a great period prior to the World Cup, Xhaka hasn't been shit hot lately. Not for a good while. But forget him specifically, because nor has Partey, and nor has Zinchenko. So happens that's our three oldest regular starters for almost the whole season, and that has disappointed me given what's been at stake.