Artetaball Tactics Thread: Page 4 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Artetaball Tactics Thread

Burnwinter

banduan Fans think the same system with a better squad will improve our chances. Clearly Mikel does not believe the same.

I reckon Arteta regards what he's putting together as the same or a very similar system, just with redundancy in all roles, and more options going forward.

We haemorrhaged 15 points in our last 9 fixtures from April based on a couple of injuries. Just 6 of those points, or even just a win over City could've won us the league. That's what all this is about.

MistaT

It’s clearly not the same system though when you have;

a RB (Partey) playing very differently (no width/overlap) than how our RB role (White) was constructed last year

our left sided 8 more focused on off ball runs and aerial/physical battles than last year’s focus on quickening transitions with positions/turns that enabled him to quickly advance the ball to Martinelli

flobaba

I have an issue with how we play. I've mentioned this before, despite our high xG. We don't consistently put pressure on the opposition defence in situations where the striker is potentially through one v one or one v two. If the run is there, the pass is usually not executed - we only regularly make the through pass or over the top pass when it's Ben White to Saka, after the latter makes a scripted run where he drops deep and when the defender moves to close him down, Saka runs in behind. We do this like twice every game or so, and mostly down the wings. I see chances like the one Antonio scored against Brighton and I feel like we don't put our strikers in these sort of positions often enough. We have the passing ability in midfield and defense, so that shouldn't be a problem. Intelligent runs into space should be rewarded, plus it gives the opposition defenders something else to worry about.

Clrnc

flobaba Spot on. Pointless to dominate possession and create little.

SimplyThePest

flobaba Sometimes, it seems our system is designed to do everything but score goals from what could be considered conventional centre-forward-type play...

est

It's about finding the balance between control and directness. We haven't quite got it right so far. Probably the most difficult thing to get right, to be fair.

MistaT

Is my understanding of xG correct - in that it doesn’t account for player profile (who has the chance), and only looks at the type of chance?

For example, a cross into the box with one CF vs two CBs will have the same xGF (say .1) no matter if the CF is Giroud or Jesus?

I bring this up to consider some of the xGF stats we’ve seen around our team and games. Against Fulham we had a dominant xGF but I never felt like we dominated that game or consistently created high quality chances.

So then, what are the types of chances we think our team will beat xGF metrics for?

Martinelli needs to be released through on goal more (like his goal vs Brighton). To don that requires more adventurous passing from deep and am acceptance of less control.

Saka needs more opportunities to cut in along the 18. Is there someone besides Odegaard who can help facilitate that? Doesn’t se to be Jesus or Nketiah’s game to set that up….

And what of Jesus - does he have a type of chance we anticipate him over delivering on?

Finally, we come to Havertz and the question of what we’re trying to do with him? And honestly, I can’t help but think that Trossard will be a better fit as I believe he’ll exceed his xGF AND seems a player who could help create the type of chances Martinelli and Saka will over exceed.

banduan

MistaT Is my understanding of xG correct - in that it doesn’t account for player profile (who has the chance), and only looks at the type of chance?

For example, a cross into the box with one CF vs two CBs will have the same xGF (say .1) no matter if the CF is Giroud or Jesus?

It doesn't, it's based on a benchmark. You could then see which players would have more xG or score more than their xG etc. This is as it should be.

Where xG is inadequate is in measuring chances that don't end up with a shot, e.g., in the Fulham game there were multiple cutbacks that were just behind the player or had no player on the end of them.

edit: fwiw the two big chances missed was Saka's badly missed header and Kiwior's blocked chance late in the game.

Pepe LeFrits

Interesting video. Echoes some observations folks have made here re: the difference between Partey and Rice at 6, probably also Havertz at 8, but also suggests credit for Mr Jover

Doc

Yeah agree, mentioned it previously in a different thread.. Still think there is an issue in the way we progress play. Build up has moved from central to out wide and I don't think we have quite cracked it yet.

It's the right way to go as Rice is a different DM to Party... Much more mobile and should be given more freedom to roam but it also makes our build up more predictable. Think that's a big reason why Saka and Martinellli has started a bit slower as our switches in play are not as disruptive as they were last season. Zinchenko can help but I think Arteta will need to adjust it some more so we become more inventive / dynamic coming out from the back.

daredevil

The base of the midfield isn't functioning optimally. Rice has a bias towards the left channel but as he's right footed, he's unable to hit vertical passes into Havertz into the half space. Instead, he's playing right footed passes to Martinelli in deep positions who then has the option to pass the ball up to Havertz who has underlapped him, but passing is not something he's particularly good at. Contrast that to last season, where Zinchenko would be the LDM playing vertical passes into Xhaka who would then release Martinelli in a one-on-one situation much higher up the pitch. The sequence down the left has changed. It was Zinchenko > Xhaka > Martinelli. Now it's Rice > Martinelli > Havertz and Martinelli hasn't been connecting with Havertz as passing is not his strength.

Similarly, the right-side of the base also has issues, oddly enough Zinchenko is inverting much further than last season and is finding himself on the right hand side of Rice, again because of Rice's left-side bias (perhaps even instruction), meaning he is the one who is responsible for finding Odegaard in the half space. He's much better at playing vertical passes through the lines, but hasn't yet developed the same relationship with Odegaard that Partey had. So as a result, neither Rice nor Zinchenko are effectively finding Odegaard or Havertz so our play through the centre has deteriorated. The ramifications of that is we're passing the ball much earlier to Saka and Martinelli in the sequence.

Also, worth noting that Saka abandoned his right flank a few times yesterday and came searching for the ball on the left, something I don't believe I've seen before, which culminated in his missed chance.

Claudius

daredevil yup. You’re seeing a lot of issues to work on.
And this is why we started with that weird 343. Because of the things you’re describing. But we will have to work through it.

Qwiss

daredevil Also, worth noting that Saka abandoned his right flank a few times yesterday and came searching for the ball on the left, something I don't believe I've seen before, which culminated in his missed chance.

That started to happen after Jesus came on. I think Arteta was relying of Jesus to create more, which he did and wanted bodies in the box to finish it. Worked fairly well apart from Sakas finish.

daredevil

Looks like we addressed this issues within a single matchday. Rice was positioned on the right side of the base, where he had an excellent game, and was very good at finding Odegaard through the lines. He also dropped deeper to collect the ball off Saliba, allowing White to charge up. His stamina and ability to cover ground means he gives us so much more tactical flexbility in how we build up from the back.

Zinchenko was also permanently positioned on the left side of the base, and instead of starting at LB and inverting, it looked like we were in a fixed 3-2 shape. The Ukrainian provided the incisive passing that we needed and played some exquisite passes over the the top. I thought that was our best performance this season in terms of control and containing the opposition.

KingslandBarge

Nice, have picked up on some similar observations to you since Zinchenko's reintroduction. Still, fascinating to see where Rice and Zinchenko were respectively for Trossard's goal. Positions perhaps taken due to a corner.

Burnwinter

Not going to go into full anti-Arteta kneejerk mode, but …

By my count we've dropped four points in the league this season. All four could have been protected if we'd seen more pragmatic, empirical decision-making by our coach, and better preparation of our players.

Today he got out-thought by a Postecoglou-led Spurs with no Kane. From the half hour mark they screened Odegaard out of the game almost completely, and they seized their chances pretty well. Glad we survived with a point, as if we'd lost the reporting would've been intolerable.

awooga83

Burnwinter agree with this view, Arteta still has some worrying traits in who his favourites are and how we manage games when we don't get it right first off.

This season is a test for him as much as the team. We had a fantastic season last year, but my question has always been how much was it down to the team, squad and management or a lucky one in 100 season with the 50 points. It'll be telling what we come out with at the end and where it sits on what Arteta has achieved in his time here.

Clrnc

Burnwinter Today he got out-thought by a Postecoglou-led Spurs with no Kane. From the half hour mark they screened Odegaard out of the game almost completely, and they seized their chances pretty well. Glad we survived with a point, as if we'd lost the reporting would've been intolerable.

I am more worried by this. From about the 29th min mark onwards they pretty much controlled most of the game and we have no answer to defend against their swift attacks. I really thought Arteta would switch not only personnel but our tactics to cope with their press and attacking play.

Anyway as you aussies already knew Ange is absolute quality and can work with whatever he already have on hand.

est

It's pretty clear that although Arteta is a great young manager with some fantastic upsides, he also has some critical flaws. He needs to improve on those, if he wants to lead us to PL/CL success. Unfortunately, one of those flaws is a massive ego, which makes it difficult for him to admit his own mistakes and correct them in time.

naz

His player biases & ego willbe the end of him

RocktheCasbah

naz Kai Havertz is already starting to feel like he could be a career defining signing for Arteta.

Rohit The occasion got to him today. He went for what he thought were the right players for the occasion, especially up front from an experience point of view. He got it wrong. In a derby when you are thin, rather go with Hale End boys. They know what this game means. It was a toss up between Havertz and Vieira otherwise. Nelson and ESR may not be upto much in training but it must be so demoralizing to be behind Martinelli, Trossard and Jesus on the wing.

Agree with this. Smith Rowe has excelled in this fixture, to now be given 5 minutes at the end because you're behind Vieira & the aforementioned Havertz must be incredibly galling. Both he and Nelson should have been on the pitch at least 15 minutes earlier as the game slipped from our control.

My uncle is absolutely raging tonight about our lack of quality at centre forward. Although, paradoxically, he does also like Eddie. Bottom line is, Jesus should have had us 2 up and we would have deserved that lead. We didn't get it and fell away second half.

Burnwinter

I wouldn't be so worried about the two points dropped today if the two dropped against Fulham didn't belong to the same pattern.

Similar limitations were showing last season when the chips were down. We had a few underperformers and some troublesome injuries, but Arteta didn't get a greater resolve from the rest, nor adjust tactically to avoid our horror run in April.

Our next three league matches are away to Bournemouth, at home to City and away to Chelsea, could easily be another 5 points dropped.

Rohit

The occasion got to him today. He went for what he thought were the right players for the occasion, especially up front from an experience point of view. He got it wrong. In a derby when you are thin, rather go with Hale End boys. They know what this game means. It was a toss up between Havertz and Vieira otherwise. Nelson and ESR may not be upto much in training but it must be so demoralizing to be behind Martinelli, Trossard and Jesus on the wing.

I still remember how excitedly ESR and Saka reflected on the game when we beat them season before last after going up 3 goals in the first half an hour. Both of them were electric.

This was a sorry Spurs side.

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