Artetaball Tactics Thread: Page 3 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Artetaball Tactics Thread

Qwiss

Pepe LeFrits what is that role? Is it not what Xhaka was doing, play as a CM (not an AM) and getting into dangerous positions as well as dropping back in transition and covering for Zinchenko when he's pushed forward? Rice can do this to a higher level than Xhaka, apart from some of Granits long range passing.

Maybe the role has changed but its hard to see that, I certainly haven't seen Havertz play in a significantly different role to Xhaka, looks more or less the same job just executed a lower level so far.

Burnwinter

Qwiss I certainly haven't seen Havertz play in a significantly different role to Xhaka, looks more or less the same job just executed a lower level so far.

Stillman's Arseblog column on it here is quite good, albeit it predates the Fulham match.

https://arseblog.com/2023/08/6-feet-kai-and-rising/

The role is similar to Xhaka's in its off the ball emphasis but there are different detailed instructions conditional on the game state, like the bit about switching with Nketiah at goal kicks. Havertz's height is a big part of his detailed role, which makes sense as our next tallest player forward of the defence is Rice I think.

Pepe LeFrits

Burnwinter thanks for that, interesting read. I'd argue though that the description there of Havertz and Odegaard as 8s there though isn't really apt - the screengrabs they have with the pair of them sitting in the pockets between the opposition midfield and defence, ahead of the ball in the build-up is much more the sort of space I'd associate with a 10. The main difference being that there's two of them in the pocket rather than a lone 10 you'd see in more traditional formations. It's that positioning @Qwiss why I don't think Rice is suited to the role, Xhaka not occupying that space as much last season is more a reflection of his limitations than what I think Arteta wants from it. I don't see Rice as suited to playing the majority of his football in that space, and I suspect with guys like Havertz/Vieira/ESR in that role this season we'll see Zinchenko mitigating his own defensive weaknesses more by wandering less and playing a more positionally disciplined orchestrator role (though I think part of the reason we've signed Rice is because he has phenomenal covering ability as well).

Claudius

So I have not really enjoyed the football of the last 3 matches as much as I enjoyed our pre World Cup football. I think it is worth trying to rationalise what Arteta is doing before dismissing it.

Last year we played a 23 at the back, Partey central. Ben White kept wide and Zinchenko came central. Partey had a tendency to naturally occupy right half spaces, so this balance worked. If you took last year’s team and just replaced Partey with Rice, this is the problem you would see: Rice occupies half spaces on the left, the same as Zinchenko. The point of Zinchenko moving centrally is to drag the opposing right wing in and leave Martinelli isolated with the opposing right back. With Rice out there, you’d likely get traffic out left and disable this dynamic.

So what Arteta did in response, was create a system that allowed both Partey and Rice to occupy their respective half spaces. And in the process isolate both Bukayo and Martinelli on either flank. What you see on attack is a system that very quickly gets the ball up to the final 3rd and keeps it there…

Claudius

… the problem is that once it’s there, we have disrupted triangles. Last year on the right we had Odegaard and Saka in the right half space with Saka and White providing width as necessary. And on the left, Martinelli, Xhaka and Jesus. With the new system, you have White rotating with Partey deep, and rarely going high and wide (only did so against Forest). This makes us narrow and congested on the right. The way we counter this is trying to switch quickly to Martinelli, but with Havertz not overlapping him, we end static. And Nketiah doesn’t rotate either.

So those are the problems we have. I don’t think it’s purely a system issue. There is a personnel / relationship issue as well. Even if we kept this system, we would need to find ways of getting White out right more and Partey dropping back, and the right 8 and striker pulling Martinelli in more.

Pepe LeFrits

Claudius So those are the problems we have. I don’t think it’s purely a system issue. There is a personnel / relationship issue as well. Even if we kept this system, we would need to find ways of getting White out right more and Partey dropping back, and the right 8 and striker pulling Martinelli in more.

I think we're caught in a transitional moment where we've signed Partey's replacement but still have Partey, and Arteta is trying to find a way to accomodate both in the team. I get his thinking particularly with Zinchenko and Timber unavailable but now that Zinchenko is back I hope he drops Partey to the bench.

Burnwinter

Pepe LeFrits I'd argue though that the description there of Havertz and Odegaard as 8s there though isn't really apt

Well … but the column's whole thesis (and concluding statement) is that Havertz is playing an eighty-niney-tenny sort of role in a rather unusual, circumstantial way … isn't Stillman saying the same thing?

Ødegaard's role is very different though and we know how it works. He's mostly there to get on the ball and run the attack, interchanging with Saka or switching the play or engineering a shot, doing what he's so good at.

Havertz' job is to stretch the defence, forcing it to account for speculative threats to do with his height, cutting down the hordes laying siege to Saka and Martinelli. The effort is endless unrewarded runs to the back post, setups in the area, etcetera. Over-adherence to instruction might explain why Havertz isn't turning when receiving the ball, as he has to get rid of the ball to do this job.

Rice would be pretty terrible at this "Havertz role". In this midfield, Rice should really be a box to box risk manager, leading the counter-press, plugging the gaps. The Essien comparison from Neville was good.

We should be selling Partey or we should not have signed Havertz. We can only comfortably field two out of Partey, Havertz and Rice, so if Partey stays, then home and away selections, or a different setup in Europe would be the go. Give Rice every match and alternate Partey and Havertz for a while, see where Deccers lines up best.

Sicario2 - Tier 1

Pepe LeFrits

So bench the best CM of the first 6 months of last season?

Claudius

Pepe LeFrits but that’s exactly my point. I don’t think it is a simple as Zinchenko is back so we can play Rice in place of Partey as the deepest midfielder because Rice and Zinchenko are going to bump into each other. What we needed was Rice central and Timber on the right ideally.

Pepe LeFrits

yup

Pepe LeFrits

Claudius why do you think Rice would occupy spaces on the left?

Claudius

Pepe LeFrits because that is what he does. Watch his heat maps. He naturally drifts left. And he did the same at West Ham.

Pepe LeFrits

Claudius Watch his heat maps. He naturally drifts left. And he did the same at West Ham.

Mmm, it's one thing for a creative player like Odegaard who bases his game so much on the particular angles and benefits of cutting inside from the right, but I'm not sure how convincing it is for a player like Rice to say that it's instinctual preference as opposed to instruction/historically just being deployed as the left sided CM. Like when went out wide left against City I'm certain it was because it was Arteta told him to, not because he likes playing on the left touch line

Doc

Think it's would be more about if they compliment eachother well. Which they do imo.. Making him play a bit to the right is not the end of the world.

Rice's superpower is that he is an all action defensive midfielder. Having that massive presence and creating passing options everywhere.. Be better if that is his main focus right now while having some one else be a bit more static in the middle, dictating play from the pivot position.

Gazza M

the only notable upside of this system is that is produces lots of long switches from white/partey/saliba to the left flank with martinelli in space. problem is him and havertz have shown no synergy thus far. I'm hoping zinchenko will be a rudder for those two when there's space on the left

banduan

Here's the rub from what I see - we wanted Arteta to fix the issues we had with depth but maintain the same system that brought us the great results. Arteta on the other hand is already working on the tactical tweaks needed as well and the problems with those tweaks are already showing up. Fans think the same system with a better squad will improve our chances. Clearly Mikel does not believe the same.

Burnwinter

banduan Fans think the same system with a better squad will improve our chances. Clearly Mikel does not believe the same.

I reckon Arteta regards what he's putting together as the same or a very similar system, just with redundancy in all roles, and more options going forward.

We haemorrhaged 15 points in our last 9 fixtures from April based on a couple of injuries. Just 6 of those points, or even just a win over City could've won us the league. That's what all this is about.

MistaT

It’s clearly not the same system though when you have;

a RB (Partey) playing very differently (no width/overlap) than how our RB role (White) was constructed last year

our left sided 8 more focused on off ball runs and aerial/physical battles than last year’s focus on quickening transitions with positions/turns that enabled him to quickly advance the ball to Martinelli

flobaba

I have an issue with how we play. I've mentioned this before, despite our high xG. We don't consistently put pressure on the opposition defence in situations where the striker is potentially through one v one or one v two. If the run is there, the pass is usually not executed - we only regularly make the through pass or over the top pass when it's Ben White to Saka, after the latter makes a scripted run where he drops deep and when the defender moves to close him down, Saka runs in behind. We do this like twice every game or so, and mostly down the wings. I see chances like the one Antonio scored against Brighton and I feel like we don't put our strikers in these sort of positions often enough. We have the passing ability in midfield and defense, so that shouldn't be a problem. Intelligent runs into space should be rewarded, plus it gives the opposition defenders something else to worry about.

Clrnc

flobaba Spot on. Pointless to dominate possession and create little.

SimplyThePest

flobaba Sometimes, it seems our system is designed to do everything but score goals from what could be considered conventional centre-forward-type play...

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