Artetaball Tactics Thread: Page 3 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Artetaball Tactics Thread

DiabyKungFu

We've had three dominant performances in three games. People are really mad Arteta isn't playing the team they expected him to play and today was just one of those days.

QuincyAbeyie

DiabyKungFu People are really mad Arteta isn't playing the team they expected him to play and couldn't win against 10 man Fulham at home

Well, yeah.

Doc

Reckon if we can get Jesus (and and to a lesser extent Zinchenko) back and performing asap he will go a long way to papering over the cracks until we sort out the base of the team. He is just a baller of a team player and lift our overall game to the next level.

Agree that it has been to much to soon, the Rice / Partey conundrum needs to be resolved.

MistaT

😆

MistaT

I think Arteta missed a huge opportunity to test Trossard as our left 8 in our two home games this season. In both of those games it was obvious we would dominate possession vs a team sitting deep, and would need someone with the craft to break down tight defenses. That is far more what Trossard offers than Havertz.

Arteta could have offered Havertz a start vs Palace in a physical game away from home. That would have played into Havertz’s strengths and let him know he needs to earn a starting role, but will be given opportunities.

Clrnc

Quite insane people want us to have sterile domination without much threat than just bloody go win the game easily at home.

goon

Clrnc

Domination is the key to 90+ seasons. Liverpool and City had plenty of god awful games where they would win anyway.

The real problem isn’t that we’re dominating and not creating loads, that will come. It’s that we are dominating and still conceding.

goon

You lads need to relax. So much angst.

It took Pep 4 months to figure out how to iron out the kinks last season, I’m sure we can afford Arteta a few weeks to figure out the best way to arrange his new toys.

Sicario2 - Tier 1

goon

Not at the cost of being out of the title race before Xmas.

Pep has earnt the right to do whatever the hell he wants. He won everything. He can even tweak for one full season and still get a free pass.

Big Willie

goon It took Pep 4 months to figure out how to iron out the kinks last season, I’m sure we can afford Arteta a few weeks to figure out the best way to arrange his new toys.

It's one thing figuring our how to fit in Super Android Haaland into the tea, Dude is so good that whatever risk there is is worth taking it. Mind you during those 4 months Haaland was doing insane numbers. I can see the reasoning to do something similar with Rice. Not with Havertz though, he needs to bide his time, come in off the bench and find some niche he can claim to contribute from.

goon The real problem isn’t that we’re dominating and not creating loads, that will come. It’s that we are dominating and still conceding.

That's kind of what happens when you move 4 of our most successful players from their favoured positions into positions they weren't playing last season (or being benched completely). This is more so the case when they were 4/5 of our outfield defensive unit.

Clrnc

goon The problem is that, we are already dominating most of our matches last year. Why do to sacrifice Partey, an additional mid to play in defence and then break our best CB partnership up for more "control"?

There's no tangible benefit sacrificing defensive solidarity for extra control that don't result in any more domination. That's also why Pep decided to rid of midfielders playing in defence for proper defenders.

Kel Varnsen

Just insert Zinchenko back in the team and many of our problems go away.

Bring Back Kerrea Gilbert

Kel Varnsen Gabriel*

Qwiss

Pepe LeFrits he did it last season after the World Cup for West Ham. They made a change from a double pivot to having Rice play beyond Soucek and Rices form shot up. He's very capable of it. I've thought his best moments for us so far are when he gets up the pitch more too. His passing around the box has pleasantly surprised me.

Pepe LeFrits

Qwiss he did it last season after the World Cup for West Ham. They made a change from a double pivot to having Rice play beyond Soucek and Rices form shot up. He's very capable of it.

That's not the same role as what he'd be doing for us in Havertz position at all.

Qwiss

Pepe LeFrits what is that role? Is it not what Xhaka was doing, play as a CM (not an AM) and getting into dangerous positions as well as dropping back in transition and covering for Zinchenko when he's pushed forward? Rice can do this to a higher level than Xhaka, apart from some of Granits long range passing.

Maybe the role has changed but its hard to see that, I certainly haven't seen Havertz play in a significantly different role to Xhaka, looks more or less the same job just executed a lower level so far.

naz

I'm not a huge fan of this new formation either, it doesn't feel right yet. If you look at the statistics for yesterday though, it was our best game of the season so far and all green across the board. I think Arteta cares so much about the underlying stats so he'll just keep going with it. That's why he loves Havertz so much so far, he's ticking a bunch of the underlying statistics right across possession won and kept and progression. It'll be interesting to see if he brings Partey in the midfield against man utd next.

This horse shoe passing crap is very annoying

Burnwinter

Qwiss I certainly haven't seen Havertz play in a significantly different role to Xhaka, looks more or less the same job just executed a lower level so far.

Stillman's Arseblog column on it here is quite good, albeit it predates the Fulham match.

https://arseblog.com/2023/08/6-feet-kai-and-rising/

The role is similar to Xhaka's in its off the ball emphasis but there are different detailed instructions conditional on the game state, like the bit about switching with Nketiah at goal kicks. Havertz's height is a big part of his detailed role, which makes sense as our next tallest player forward of the defence is Rice I think.

Pepe LeFrits

Burnwinter thanks for that, interesting read. I'd argue though that the description there of Havertz and Odegaard as 8s there though isn't really apt - the screengrabs they have with the pair of them sitting in the pockets between the opposition midfield and defence, ahead of the ball in the build-up is much more the sort of space I'd associate with a 10. The main difference being that there's two of them in the pocket rather than a lone 10 you'd see in more traditional formations. It's that positioning @Qwiss why I don't think Rice is suited to the role, Xhaka not occupying that space as much last season is more a reflection of his limitations than what I think Arteta wants from it. I don't see Rice as suited to playing the majority of his football in that space, and I suspect with guys like Havertz/Vieira/ESR in that role this season we'll see Zinchenko mitigating his own defensive weaknesses more by wandering less and playing a more positionally disciplined orchestrator role (though I think part of the reason we've signed Rice is because he has phenomenal covering ability as well).

Claudius

So I have not really enjoyed the football of the last 3 matches as much as I enjoyed our pre World Cup football. I think it is worth trying to rationalise what Arteta is doing before dismissing it.

Last year we played a 23 at the back, Partey central. Ben White kept wide and Zinchenko came central. Partey had a tendency to naturally occupy right half spaces, so this balance worked. If you took last year’s team and just replaced Partey with Rice, this is the problem you would see: Rice occupies half spaces on the left, the same as Zinchenko. The point of Zinchenko moving centrally is to drag the opposing right wing in and leave Martinelli isolated with the opposing right back. With Rice out there, you’d likely get traffic out left and disable this dynamic.

So what Arteta did in response, was create a system that allowed both Partey and Rice to occupy their respective half spaces. And in the process isolate both Bukayo and Martinelli on either flank. What you see on attack is a system that very quickly gets the ball up to the final 3rd and keeps it there…

Claudius

… the problem is that once it’s there, we have disrupted triangles. Last year on the right we had Odegaard and Saka in the right half space with Saka and White providing width as necessary. And on the left, Martinelli, Xhaka and Jesus. With the new system, you have White rotating with Partey deep, and rarely going high and wide (only did so against Forest). This makes us narrow and congested on the right. The way we counter this is trying to switch quickly to Martinelli, but with Havertz not overlapping him, we end static. And Nketiah doesn’t rotate either.

So those are the problems we have. I don’t think it’s purely a system issue. There is a personnel / relationship issue as well. Even if we kept this system, we would need to find ways of getting White out right more and Partey dropping back, and the right 8 and striker pulling Martinelli in more.

Pepe LeFrits

Claudius So those are the problems we have. I don’t think it’s purely a system issue. There is a personnel / relationship issue as well. Even if we kept this system, we would need to find ways of getting White out right more and Partey dropping back, and the right 8 and striker pulling Martinelli in more.

I think we're caught in a transitional moment where we've signed Partey's replacement but still have Partey, and Arteta is trying to find a way to accomodate both in the team. I get his thinking particularly with Zinchenko and Timber unavailable but now that Zinchenko is back I hope he drops Partey to the bench.

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