Man City charged for breaching Financial Rules: Page 5 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Man City charged for breaching Financial Rules

Mirth

Even without further appeals it can still be pushed out to delay. It's a lot harder than proving something like match fixing.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/case-against-manchester-city-for-financial-breaches-could-take-four-years-tfpb7wnhf

Burnwinter

The longer they draw it out, the higher the stakes for City if they are to lose. The PL can apply pretty arbitrary penalties to them, and won't stint if it takes four years to obtain a verdict.

James

goon There's 105 charges. Each one will be picked over and pulled apart if possible by City's team. Even if each charge took a week say, that's 2 years.

goon

Burnwinter thanks mate, saves me from having to call upon @Big Willie to get me in.

James will they have an indefinite amount of time to comb over and dispute the charges? Surely given that it's an internal process, they could just set time parameters? X months for discovery, X months for a hearings. X months for appeals. Done. Too simple? 😆

Burnwinter

Here's an de-paywalled archive link for the Times article for anyone who doesn't fancy Murdoch …

https://archive.md/o15kO

Not so sure to be honest. There's two expert comments there.

One is from a KC who represented Derby County on its own charges and lost. "Related experience", sure, but on a completely different scale, for completely different reasons, with completely different stakes and pressures, and without years and years of painstaking audit and evidence discovery in advance.

The other is from a guy who says City won't be able to appeal but he wouldn't be surprised if it all took over two years anyway. Big whoop.

It'll all be done behind closed doors, but the Premier League will presumably prefer to focus on either the most provable, or the most significant, or the most decisive charges first. This isn't a criminal court, there's no real precedent, no suggestion of any understood principle of what's a proportionate penalty for any charge proven, no clarity about what if any ordinary legal processes will apply, few prescribed limits in the rulebook about what the Premier League could do.

My prediction: once the Premier League has outlined its approach behind the scenes, including whatever cards they hold that have led them to declare these 105 charges at all, this will go quite swiftly. We'll know roughly the outcome this time next year, and if it's not finalised it'll be because they're waiting for the summer for some reason of fairness.

jones

There's no way anything substantial will come from this. Seen people daydream about City getting relegated etc, the same organisation that watches PL refs do their thing every weekend will now acknowledge City's foul play and punish them for it yeah right lol.

Burnwinter

jones There's no way anything substantial will come from this.

People always say this about FFP, too, but the linkage between revenue and spending, however loose, has been the only thing holding things together for years now.

Sometimes measures will be feeble, but leagues will always intervene if the cash cow is perceived to be under threat or the competitions themselves are fully devalued by corruption or sporting unfairness. See how quick those last ESL proposals were smashed to get the idea ...

Daz

Hey Jones, where you been mate? Good to see you back around

JazzG

goon Remember reading they can take it to the UK courts if needed, was on Twitter mind you so not sure how accurate that is,

jones

Burnwinter I'm not sure how to measure "things being held together", I think Chelsea current antics, PSG's breaking of all sorts of records and City's continued dominance is a sign of a pretty broken system.

FFP was buried after they saw that clubs were working around it anyway. You can call UEFA corrupt and be 100% right about it but they're the only ones who actually stepped to City and the likes and even hit them with transfer bans and exclusions from Europe, it was CAS who lifted the sanctions on appeal.

The reason I'm sure nothing will come off of this is because it's the FA who are behind it and unlike the corrupt cunts at FIFA and UEFA these corrupt cunts have never done anything to any club in England no matter how egregious the offence. Could even go a bit more into cultural level, to me it feels like Spanish and Italian clubs are much more likely to do something in these cases as you see Juve relegated, docked points, Barcelona hit with all sorts of punishments. It's not an Anglosaxon thing though, German and English organisations keep stuff like that hush.

Also I'm sure the ESL bit was not on purpose but you've seen how there's been a third proposal despite the powerful interests smashing it the last couple times. Money always finds a way.

Asterix

https://theathletic.com/4163029/2023/02/09/manchester-city-draft-premier-league/

Fun little exercise here - the journo imagines what would happen if City were broken up and the remaining clubs get to pick from their players draft style, with Southampton going first and us last. If you don't have a subscription here is how he picked it:

Soton - Haaland
Bournemouth - de Bruyne
Everton - Foden
West Ham - Silva
Leeds - Pep (lol)
Wolves - Mahrez
Leicester - Ederson
Forest - Dias
Palace - Walker
Villa - Grealish (acknowledging he rigged this)
Liverpool - Gundogan
Chelsea - Cancelo
Fulham - Rodri
Brentford - Stones
Brighton - Rico Lewis
Spurs - Cole Palmer
Newcastle - Laporte
Man Utd - Alvarez
Arsenal - Phillips

goon

jones The reason I'm sure nothing will come off of this is because it's the FA who are behind it

FA actually have nothing to do with it, it's the Premier League. The Premier League essentially works for the clubs, the majority of whom are now run by Americans, who will probably be quite keen to cut the legs of any state sponsored clubs from distorting the money making model they want to bring over from the states.

I actually wouldn't be surprised to see far more regulation coming into the league for the same reason. It's no coincidence imo that the PL only recently tightened up their FFP to be a little more stringent.

Burnwinter

jones

Look mate, it's just a pragmatic view. We don't say speed limits don't work because many drivers routinely break them. They work. FFP is similar except even moreso, because at least a commuter car engine will top out at 150km/h.

Without FFP, there would be no spending restrictions at all on these rogue clubs, in leagues where the speculative resources from top to bottom vary by two orders of magnitude.

Obviously it's a shitty system but it has a big impact on clubs' behaviour, and expresses its expectations in terms every club understands. Even if said terms are relentlessly flouted through shady dealings, fake sponsors, and so on.

FredAsh49

my mates from up north say this is typical city. complete rollercoaster club. even tho they have always had aspects better than man utd they can't get the support and stability united enjoy so their inferiority makes them do dumb things and put the club in jeopardy. could see this coming when them lot took over.

JazzG

LMAO what a defence.

goon

😆

When that’s your best defence you know you’re in trouble.

Clrnc

What's that tweet about its deleted

JazzG

Link works for me?

Manchester City launch legal fight against Premier League charges
Martyn Ziegler

Manchester City have lodged legal challenges against the Premier League’s 115 charges for alleged rule breaches, disputing the legality of the investigation and the involvement of the barrister who is in charge of the disciplinary process.

The Times understands that City have raised the dispute in relation to recent changes in the Premier League’s rules, arguing that they should not apply to investigations into alleged rule breaches before then.

The club are also understood to have challenged the involvement of Murray Rosen KC, the head of the Premier League’s independent judicial panel, as the person who appoints the chair of the disciplinary commission — under the rules he can appoint himself. Rosen’s profile on his chambers’ website states that he is a “member of the MCC and Arsenal FC”.

The Premier League declined to comment. Manchester City did not respond when asked to comment.

The challenges are likely to cause a further delay to the outcome of the case — legal experts believe that it could be between two and four years before it is completed. Any legal dispute between the clubs and the league should initially go to an arbitration tribunal, and beyond that it can go to the High Court and Court of Appeal.

After the charges were announced in February, City made clear that they would take every possible legal step to defend themselves and insisted they have “irrefutable evidence” to disprove the 115 alleged rule breaches over 14 seasons, from 2009-10 to the present campaign.

Although it is not certain which specific rule changes the legal challenge relates to, there have been several changes to the Premier League’s rulebook in recent seasons. In February last year, the league added new guidance to its rules stating that individuals are required to provide information and documents when asked.

Murray Rosen KC’s profile lists him a “member of the MCC and Arsenal FC”
WWW.4NEWSQUARE.COM/PROFILE/MURRAY-ROSEN-KC

The additional wording says: “The obligation means that those bound by the rules must not only answer questions, provide information and provide documents when requested to do so, but also that, for example (and without limitation), they must not delay at all in doing so, they must do so comprehensively, and they must do so on a co-operative and open basis, which includes volunteering relevant information and documents unknown to the board, obtaining such information and documents from other parties when able to do so, and ensuring that the appropriate individuals are made available for questioning by the board.’

At the same time, the league also introduced the potential for “interim measures” to be taken to enforce compliance.

In the 2016-17 season, a rule was amended to say: “Each club shall comply promptly and in full with any request for information made by the league.”

If the charges are proved it could lead to a range of sanctions, including a deduction of points, with the ultimate punishment being expulsion from the Premier League.

The charges include: inaccurate financial reporting over nine seasons, from 2009-10 to 2017-18; not co-operating with an investigation and handing over documents as required over five seasons, from 2018-19 to 2022-23; not providing full details of the manager Roberto Mancini’s pay over the four seasons he was at the club, from 2009-13; not providing full details of players’ remuneration over six seasons, from 2010-11 to 2015-16.

City have employed a heavyweight legal team to deal with the Premier League’s investigation and charges, including David Pannick KC. The club had previously issued legal challenges to the Premier League after an investigation was launched in December 2018 following the release of the “Football Leaks” emails obtained by the Portuguese hacker Rui Pinto, which suggested some sponsorship income from Abu Dhabi companies was in fact paid directly by the club’s owners.

Those challenges took until 2021 to reach a conclusion, and it was not until February of this year that charges were brought.

A High Court ruling in March 2021 revealed that “the PL has suggested that the Club [MCFC] has sought to delay its handing over of the relevant documents and information by making numerous procedural applications”.

City will contend the Champions League final against Inter Milan next month after their 5-1 aggregate semi-final victory over Real MadridCity will contend the Champions League final against Inter Milan next month after their 5-1 aggregate semi-final victory over Real Madrid

City will contend the Champions League final against Inter Milan next month after their 5-1 aggregate semi-final victory over Real Madrid

It also revealed that the Premier League issued a disciplinary complaint against Manchester City in August 2019 “seeking disclosure of certain documents and information”. A commission was appointed to deal with the disciplinary complaint “but its composition and the disciplinary system were challenged by the club as not sufficiently independent or impartial”.

In October 2019, the Premier League began an arbitration process against City, seeking an order for the club to “deliver up documents and information which were being withheld”.

City brought a legal challenge then, saying that the Premier League “had no power to institute an . . . arbitration in respect of its information claim” and “that the tribunal did not have the appearance of impartiality”.

That challenge by City eventually failed, and the club and the Premier League also both failed in an attempt — that went to the Court of Appeal — to prevent the court decision from being made public.

One of the Court of Appeal judges, Lord Justice Males, said in a July 2021 ruling: “It is surprising, and a matter of legitimate public concern, that so little progress has been made after 2½ years — during which, it may be noted, the club has twice been crowned as Premier League champions.”

City also employed a heavyweight legal team in successfully contesting charges brought by Uefa for breaches of its Financial Fair Play rules. Uefa initially imposed a two-year ban from European competitions but that was overturned by the Court of Arbitration for Sport in July 2020, which ruled that some charges were time-barred and that there was not enough evidence for others.

The only sanction the court confirmed was a €10 million (about £8.7 million) fine for not co-operating with Uefa’s investigation.

The latest legal challenge will also have to go to an arbitration panel initially, but beyond that it could go to the High Court. It has been suggested that City are prepared to go to the Supreme Court to fight the charges.

JazzG

Someone is feeling a bit insecure today......

Saw some stat they've spent net near €1b more than us since 2008...

Gazza M

any false equivalency in a storm

pep, soriano, khaldoon et al have all been running interference for abu dhabi and doing their damndest to normalise blatant corruption for years. gaslighting fuck heads, all of them. English press are too scared of being sued or damaging 'the brand' to do anything about it

another reason why I can't really respect or 'appreciate' what they're doing now. it's been built on a foundation of 8 years of cheating. fuck off with 'but but look at their net spend, ideally and conveniently the last few years net spend specifically'. it's fucking easy to have low net spend when you've accumulated the best players in the world by leveraging 8 years worth of ill-gotten gains and hiring the best coach in the world to oversee it. there comes a point when you're really only having to buy 1 or 2 top players each year, because you have an embarrassment of riches in every other position

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