Mirth Look at Man City - Pep rotates his squad through out the season precisely so that they're peaking during the final stretch. Including resting the likes of De Bryune.

Another example that's come to mind - courtesy of the Football Ramble - is how City have managed Haaland all season. It's hard to drop Haaland but Pep's still managed his minutes by taking him off after 60 mins numerous times even when Haaland looked sharp and was on a hattrick. The result is that a) he's in form in the final weeks of the season and b) this is the most appearances he's ever made in a single season and his injury problems from Dortmund seem to have been addressed for now.

Elite football is now a squad game more than ever, we won't go far if we make our best players play 50 game x 90 minutes every season - no matter how many millions they make.

      Mirth How often do you see Salah supporting Alexander Arnold in defence? Saka's starting position I believe is also significantly farther back when we counter. That's what I mean by different roles.

      I went to squawka to check on a couple of defensive stats for both players. https://www.squawka.com/en/comparison-matrix/
      Tackles made, take ons completed, take on success %, fouls won, clearances, interceptions. Saka is head and shoulders above Salah as an all round footballer. Salah is basically an end product machine in the mold of Ronaldo. He and Saka, on paper, might play in the same position, but the way the position is interpreted by the player and what is required by the team from each of them is very different.

          Mirth

          Yes, but the reason why City can rest Haaland like that is because Alvarez is good enough to be a title winning striker himself. It's a luxury that no other club in football has (having second string players who are almost, if not as good as the first string). It's why Saka and Salah and other players like them have to learn how to play so much football because normal clubs don't have great alternatives so the talismen have to learn to endure.

          Mahrez on his day is every bit as good as both if not better than Saka at least, and he's been used very sparingly this season. City have that luxury, and if we did, then I'm sure Saka would be managed with fewer minutes but we need to find a player as good as Saka to enable that. Look at how Martinelli is being managed since Trossard's arrival.

          That's why I think we need to approach Nelson's replacement the same way we did Trossard, which is sign a player who can sit Saka on the bench. If we approach it that way, then we'll benefit but if we view it through the lens of signing an understudy, then we won't sign someone who is good enough to give the manager the confidence to rest Saka more frequently.

              flobaba

              If Saka got to that level going forward I guarantee he's defensive output would drop. He wouldn't need to.

              Salah is one of the best in the PL era in that position. It's not remotely an insult to say Saka isn't on that level yet. Salah was a nobody at 21. But if Saka wants to be the best, he needs to become a killer in the box and other dangerous situations in the same way.

                flobaba Goon is right, those stats are being analysed in reverse. Salah has a freer role because he's won that right from his manager because he's an end product monster. It's the same with even the likes of Vinicius Jr (or Messi or Ronaldo) who has worse defensive stats than Saka but you wouldn't say they're worse footballers overall.

                Getting that free role is earned and Saka isn't there yet despite Arteta clearly wanting him to be our main attacking outlet.

                    daredevil Yes, but the reason why City can rest Haaland like that is because Alvarez is good enough to be a title winning striker himself. It's a luxury that no other club in football has (having second string players who are almost, if not as good as the first string). It's why Saka and Salah and other players like them have to learn how to play so much football because normal clubs don't have great alternatives so the talismen have to learn to endure.

                    It's not just City: https://madriduniversal.com/benzema-not-injured-after-being-left-out-of-the-squad-for-real-sociedad-clash-report/

                    Salah and Liverpool are a good example of why it's not good to run your players into the ground because they'll hit a wall at some point. Mane looks broken and Salah clearly went down a level at the start of the season before slowly recovering. Liverpool have learned from this and now they have more attackers than ever before - Darwin, Jota, Diaz, Salah, Gakpo and Firmino (who may leave) is a lot more depth than they had a few seasons ago. We should learn the same.

                    FWIW when we did have the option to rotate Saka with Trossard, we didn't.

                      To be fair it's not mathematically possible for RM to catch Barca and they're still in the CL, so it's a no-brainer.

                      But yeah, we should've given more minutes to Nelson and ESR this season.

                      Mirth seems odd to discount the European tournaments tho.

                      Not really, Liverpool play their first teams in Europe we don't. TBH in the European games our first team players looked to be playing at half speed. I don't think the team, including the manager were all that concerned with it.

                      Focussing on the league is focussing on the competition that they both played the same opposition, with the same number of games, etc Its the comparison that makes the most sense.

                      For me Saka and Salah are on about the same level right now, however one is still improving and one is on the cusp of decline. And Saka has had a better season. Salah is still world class but Saka i there now too.

                        daredevil Yes, but the reason why City can rest Haaland like that is because Alvarez is good enough to be a title winning striker

                        I don't for one minute believe that if we were chasing City by the sort of gap we had a few weeks ago and Arteta had Halaand and Alvarez he'd have made the same moves. We have had plenty capable players on the bench who could have come on to see out games and it didn't happen. The players we have now are Artetas players, he brought them in or decided to keep them here. There are no more excuses about the back ups to be made. Alvarez cost half what Fabio Vieira did.

                            Qwiss not that I disagree with your wider point but on the final point you make re: costs, part of that responsibility must fall on Edu and co. The fact that Alvarez is cheaper than Vieira is not necessarily an indicator of comparative ability. We need to become better at selling but we also need to be making the right moves that will enable us to pick up talents at the right price (or simply negotiate better).

                              Mirth I don't think it's clear at all that Arteta specifically wants Saka to be our main attacking threat. He wants both our wingers to both score and assist, and to stay predominantly out wide, and it's reflected in how similar their numbers are. Also wants them to do their fair share of defending. Countless times on here i've bemoaned our inability to, or the infrequency with which our forward line is set up for one v one opportunities on the counter. In fact one of the few times I recall seeing what I'm talking about is Martinelli's disallowed goal vs Man U at Old Trafford.

                              This is a feature not a bug- We play control ball, right? That's defence first, structure first, before attack. We allow teams to fall back more often than not and don't actively look to put our players in behind the opposition defence. It's not like Xhaka or Odegaard can't thread a pass. They can. We just don't play that way. Nobody just becomes an end product monster under these conditions. Saka more often than not is double teamed, but it doesn't necessarily create space for others. The system is geared more towards balance imo.

                                  flobaba Firstly, I agree that some of it is speculative on my part and you could be right about what Arteta's thinking long term.

                                  But the reason I feel that what we see in terms of Saka and Martinelli's role isn't set in stone is because of glimpses we've had this season.

                                  Martinelli, for example, has gradually shifted more centrally as the season has gone on. We played him wide in the first half (particularly when Nketiah was playing) but in recent months, particularly since Trossard was in the team, he's become more narrow even if he starts the game out wide (e.g. see his goal at Anfield or his goal vs Everton (H))

                                  Using Squawka and checking for duels, interceptions etc you can see that Martinelli has done less than Saka and although I can't split the data by month, I'm willing to bet that they were probably both evenly matched pre-March as both are hard working players by nature but Martinelli's role shifted because he's shown signs of being more clinical.

                                  The other reason I feel like Arteta would be open to a similar role for Saka is purely because of how Sane and Sterling were managed at City. They had a similar degree of flexibility in their role and by all accounts Arteta was responsible in their development.

                                  Generally speaking, I think it would be a waste if Saka continues to play in a more withdrawn role. He should be spending the majority of his time in the final third and preferably as close to the box as possible.

                                    7 days later

                                    Shouldn’t start a single game again this season.

                                    Arteta has his favourites but Saka been his blind spot in 2023

                                    That penalty miss against West Ham was the end of the season. For him and all of us.

                                    Nelson and Trossard should have had more minutes in that time. Both have shown enough to be given run-outs when Saka has been off form. Arteta does need to learn to rotate as I don't see how we can manage the burden or CL football without doing so.

                                      Don Pacifico a lot of us were saying all season that Saka was being over played. He played some stupid Europa and cup games that he never should have. Thats the sort of player management Arteta needs to get right in future. TBF he probably never thought we'd last so long in the league but we are at that level now so its time to act like it. We need to do what Pep does and manage players so that they are still fresh and fully fit once you reach the last 2 months of the season. Especially if we want to compete on 4 fronts next season.

                                          Qwiss for sure - I remember speculating that our over-reliance on our core group would bite us in the ass come the latter stages of the season.

                                          Difficult to feel like that hasn't been the case; contributing factor to our recent slump.

                                            The big question is whether outcomes would have been different or not. On the individual player's level, maybe, but results? Hard to say.

                                            7 days later