Whole performance was just disgusting and unacceptable. Mostly feel sorry for the fans who made a London-Newcastle return trip on a weeknight after work for that. Could see from the first 5 minutes there was no way were going to win. We barely had the ball and never threatened. Certainly didn't look like we were the team who had to win. Look much more like we had "nothing to play for" like people said Newcastle did. Not that it was necessarily the biggest issue today but fullbacks have to be a priority after a centre forward in the summer. Tierney and Tomiyasu don't seem able to be relied upon to remain fit for a sustained period and we just can't play this many games with Cedric and Tavares again.

After the string of 3 losses and with the next run of games being Chelsea, Man United and West Ham it looked like 4th was gone and that top 6 was even possibly at risk too. Noone could have predicted winning those next 3 which then put us back into pole position for 4th. It almost might have been easier to take to have just continued that losing run and been out of it before the Spurs game. To get so close that it looks like we should make it then collapse like this right at the end probably hurts more.

Just like the latter Wenger days, we've collapsed in the key moments again. The players are mostly all different, the coaches different, even the club's executive leadership team are different, but the result remains the same. We've collapsed. No amount of additions, departures, regime changes or consulting firms telling us what the club's "culture" is seem capable of changing that.

I know I tried to find positives after Spurs and Europa does still represent improvement from the last 2 seasons and a good result after the start of this season. But this collapse really hurts and even worse that we've handed them their ticket into the big time. But ultimately it's probably just as well we don't have to go to Bayern or Real etc with Cedric and co.

dreamlord wrote:

Meh, Gabi Eddie Saka Ode is not an attack that is going to come back and win games anytime soon. They can barely score more than a goal a game as it is. I love our young players, but they're not at that level yet. Or Arteta's system makes them look worse, I can't tell at this point.

Look at the teams below us in the table and how much they score then answer your question yourself.

Just realised this is probably the last time we are finishing above Newcastle too

Clrnc wrote:

Just realised this is probably the last time we are finishing above Newcastle too

This reads a bit like "we're going to get relegated" before match day four this season.

I mean, now's the time to get the utmost negativity and disappointments off our chests, but some of this may not age too well.

I'm feeling pretty down-hearted and disappointed but we still have the makings of some sort of squad currently if we can add a couple of players in summer.

I missed this as I had an important meeting in the morning. Had long before managed my expectations so the result disappointed but didn't hit me as hard.

Burnwinter wrote:
Clrnc wrote:

Just realised this is probably the last time we are finishing above Newcastle too

This reads a bit like "we're going to get relegated" before match day four this season.

I mean, now's the time to get the utmost negativity and disappointments off our chests, but some of this may not age too well.

I'm feeling pretty down-hearted and disappointed but we still have the makings of some sort of squad currently if we can add a couple of players in summer.

We have a talented squad who might be permanently damaged when Arteta is done with them. We've already lost Auba Guendouzi and Pepe, we're turning Martinelli from the talent of the century to a guy who's scored once all year, White ESR Ramsdale all haven't been in a good place for a while now either plus whoever he manages to fall out with next.

jones wrote:

We have a talented squad who might be permanently damaged when Arteta is done with them. We've already lost Auba Guendouzi and Pepe, we're turning Martinelli from the talent of the century to a guy who's scored once all year, White ESR Ramsdale all haven't been in a good place for a while now either plus whoever he manages to fall out with next.

This.
It still wouldn't surprise me if something happened during that last international break as we've struggled since then despite the wins v MU, CFC & WHU.

jones wrote:
Burnwinter wrote:

This reads a bit like "we're going to get relegated" before match day four this season.

I mean, now's the time to get the utmost negativity and disappointments off our chests, but some of this may not age too well.

I'm feeling pretty down-hearted and disappointed but we still have the makings of some sort of squad currently if we can add a couple of players in summer.

We have a talented squad who might be permanently damaged when Arteta is done with them. We've already lost Auba Guendouzi and Pepe, we're turning Martinelli from the talent of the century to a guy who's scored once all year, White ESR Ramsdale all haven't been in a good place for a while now either plus whoever he manages to fall out with next.

he's quite autocratic and thin-skinned, which is a volatile combination when you're not winning. he'll keep icing people out until the majority of the dressing room turns on him. 

Burnwinter wrote:
Clrnc wrote:

Just realised this is probably the last time we are finishing above Newcastle too

This reads a bit like "we're going to get relegated" before match day four this season.

I mean, now's the time to get the utmost negativity and disappointments off our chests, but some of this may not age too well.

I'm feeling pretty down-hearted and disappointed but we still have the makings of some sort of squad currently if we can add a couple of players in summer.

Burns, its not an outlandish claim as you think. Newcastle has unlimited budget for instance. They will be the next city.

Furthermore, since Howe took over at the start of the year they have had 7 more points than us. Their improvement is incredible and they are just going to splash more money.

I mean all the praise on how great arteta is, how good the signings are didn't age well either but I fear that the Saudis are going to splash the cash this summer

Clrnc wrote:

Just realised this is probably the last time we are finishing above Newcastle too

Spurs are now in the CL and have Conte as manager. They'll be stronger and we are already behind them. Hopefully Newcastle and United take some time to sort themselves out but I feel like they've as good a chance of going up a level as we do. Maybe Chelsea will fall away without Roman? Who knows, either way there are no guarantees we get this chance again next season or the season after.

jones wrote:
dreamlord wrote:

Meh, Gabi Eddie Saka Ode is not an attack that is going to come back and win games anytime soon. They can barely score more than a goal a game as it is. I love our young players, but they're not at that level yet. Or Arteta's system makes them look worse, I can't tell at this point.

Look at the teams below us in the table and how much they score then answer your question yourself.

It's a bit of both IMO. Leicester, United and West Ham are the 3 below us that have scored a couple of goals more than us, and on a player by player basis, I genuinely don't believe our attack is that much better, especially when you consider the midfield as well. Saka is the only one that stands head and shoulders above everyone, and he's inconsistent, but atleast you can expect him to step up to the next level. I don't see that happening with the others.

dreamlord wrote:
jones wrote:

Look at the teams below us in the table and how much they score then answer your question yourself.

It's a bit of both IMO. Leicester, United and West Ham are the 3 below us that have scored a couple of goals more than us, and on a player by player basis, I genuinely don't believe our attack is that much better, especially when you consider the midfield as well. Saka is the only one that stands head and shoulders above everyone, and he's inconsistent, but atleast you can expect him to step up to the next level. I don't see that happening with the others.

Imagine Antonio Iheanacho or a 35 year old Vardy starting up front for us, Dewsbury-Hall Perez or Lanzini as the creators behind them. Do you think we would score as many as we've scored with the players we have?

Not saying we couldn't improve the squad itself, obviously we could, but consider the ceiling average and bottom level of performance we get from our squad. There's no way our players shouldn't be scoring way more than we have, should be much closer to Chelsea than to fucking midtable teams.

The problems is definitely not the players. We create fuck all dude. It's been utterly consistent throughout Arteta's reign. The ball doesn't even get into the box, how do we score? Always one of the lowest chances created.

Well yeah, Arteta had us playing Xhaka and Elneny in midfield during the most important time of the season - where the fuck are the chances going to come from there lol. So it is on him, no arguments there, he's picked the squad. I'm just saying that as individuals, our attackers are not that great either, Saka aside.

How much of that is because of the way we set up though?

Let's look at our talented youngsters as individuals:

Saka is one of the best players in the league already, and he's an anomaly, because he can do pretty much everything, play anywhere and still excel. He makes things happen on his own and we're incredibly lucky to have him, but he's special, not many players are that intelligent, especially at that age. He's every manager's dream, as you don't have to do anything to enable him, he does it all by himself.

Martinelli might actually have a higher ceiling than Saka, his biggest weaknesses right now are his finishing and his movement off the ball. Both can be coached, but does it look like that's been worked on in training? He's a livewire who always adds energy at the very least and at times can destroy his full back, but unlike Saka he tends to disappear in some games, because he needs space to run into and he needs someone playing the vertical balls between the lines for him to run onto. And right now we're excruciatingly slow in transition, which means that he's almost always facing defenders who are firmly in position in their own box, with no space available, leaving him with only the option of trying to bulldoze through them, and about 20 meters of space at best to use his blistering pace. He's also playing on the side of Xhaka, and since our midfield setup seems incredibly rigid when it comes to Odegaard and Xhaka switching positions, he's always on the wrong side, since 90% of our attacks that actually lead somewhere, go through Odegaard and the right side of midfield. He has his flaws, but we're not playing to his strengths, right now he's basically just in the team to press like a madman.

ESR was our top scorer for most of the season, Saka only has one more goal. Without him, 4th wouldn't even have been a possibility. And then he was relegated to the bench and only came back in when Martinelli was unavailable or for an odd start here or there after a bad performance the prior week. And he still scored. At some point though, he lost his rhythm, and his biggest weakness is that he tends to go into hiding when the ball doesn't come to him and he's not having his best day. So what does Arteta do? Never give him a run of games to build up some confidence again and play him out on the left wing, where just like Martinelli he barely sees the ball, because Xhaka takes 5 seconds to advance it and we generally only play through Odegaard. ESR has great pace, he's a brilliant dribbler and he excels at one-touch give and go football in small spaces. He also disguises his shot really well. He needs to be in the thick of things to grow into games, build confidence and accelerate our play, but we play him in the most isolated forward position in this current setup. So once again, I think we're not playing to his strengths, and in his case are actually playing him in a way that accentuates his weaknesses.

And lastly we have Odegaard, who I personally think is supremely talented and a joy to watch. His vision and intelligence is absolutely incredible, and he can find anyone with creative passes that keep catching defenders off-guard. He also works really hard and is good at skipping past a man or two in tight spaces. I don't think it's a coincidence we played by far the best football under Arteta when he was in top form and our best player. I also don't think it's a coincidence he started playing worse when Partey got injured. Because Odegaard needs the ball as often as possible and ideally, he needs it quickly, when defenders are scrambling to get back, spaces open up and he has the ball to exploit them and cut the opponents open with the right ball at the right moment. Right now he either had to get the ball himself in our own half, or he gets it about 5 seconds too late, which is about the time Xhaka or Elneny take to control the ball, decide what to do and play a pass. They're too slow, and as a result, he always has a man or two on him already when he gets the ball. that prick Rice demonstrated exactly how to play against him, and we didn't give him any help, because he's our only good player in midfield right now.
His biggest weakness is his lack of a right foot, followed by his finishing. Both are things he needs to work on, and that's what he should do in the summer. His partners are a mess, but contrary to ESR and Martinelli, I do think we're set up in a way that allows him to play to his strengths, the problem with him, and Saka as well, is that we're completely reliant on them to make things happen and everyone knows it. We've made him captain already and he's now overseen a spectacular collapse, I worry about his confidence going into next season. We've given him and Saka too much to do too soon, and while it has resulted in a 5th place finish (not going to even entertain the idea of getting my hopes up for 4th again), I'm worried what it will do to them if we keep failing and they don't get any help. So while we are playing to Odegaard's and Saka's strengths, we're also handing them a shitload of responsibility, which could be avoided if we actually had a left side or anyone else bar yutes to make something happen in the final third.

So overall, I personally think that, while it's fair to note that they as individuals disappointed during the last few weeks, we're not putting them in a position to succeed, and that worries me more than any extension to Elneny or, god forbid, Xhaka. Klopp is raving about Martinelli, calling him a "talent of the century", if we don't change the way we play anytime soon, he'll be at Liverpool in two or three years at the latest. And Saka, ESR, Odegaard, they'll be next. And if they then put in world class performances for the likes of Liverpool or City, we'll be left looking like idiots once again, and this time I won't forgive the club for that.

Lots that I agree with there Kurt.

A few points that I would make though:

Regarding Saka - I do think we've put him in a position (role) to succeed. He's been freed up of defensive work and build up play, and in doing so he's regularly stayed high up field isolated against a FB. Most of our best attacking has come from quick balls up to him and then him slowing it down to bring Odegaard into play, or finding an attacking option in the middle..

For Martinelli - Xhaka has been both a hinderance and an enabler. It's clear that Xhaka is looking to play it quickly and consistently to Martinelli, but the issue is that Xhaka is so static that his passes are telegraphed and so Martinelli looks up at 2-3 players to beat. I've seen so few threatening balls from Martinelli that enable him to run into space or receive the ball at pace (while he's moving) so he can attack a FB/CB one v one.

For me, the biggest issue is that Arteta wants control of the ball so he can control the game. But for all of his tactics and coaching the end result is slow, stagnant play that makes us easy to defend against. We haven't ripped a team to shreds this year, despite consistently fielding superior starting XIs.

The slow build up works if you have an excellent striker and/or great interchange as the other team gets deeper. But we have neither, nor the physicality to attack crosses into the box.

I truly believe this team would be better off opening up games to try winning 3-2 rather than our slow pace which ends in 1-0 wins.

Something I've read a few times during the season is that none of our forwards look to make (enough) runs into space behind the defence. It's been a criticism of Saka that he wants the ball to feet and then he will look to go past his man.
The most obvious disclaimer to this is the run he made into space ahead of Odegaard's no look back heel pass, but I think the point is more aimed towards when we are breaking forward in transition, rather than when we are in possession in the final 3rd.

Maddison 10 goals 7 assists in a mediocre Leicester team.

16 goals in all comps.

Hey goon, long time.

The final thread of the season is all yours brother.

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