"The journey continues" - Mikel signs extension until 2025: Page 57 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

"The journey continues" - Mikel signs extension until 2025

Claudius

Wenger had cutbacks. He spoke about them. It was part of what annoyed commentators about Wenger. The whole “Arsenal try to walk the ball into the net” criticism arose from cutbacks.

A lot of the offensive principles, in terms of how offense is built up are old. They were designed by Chapman, and then really perfected by Cruyff.

The throughlines are important. Watching the 15 minute video posted earlier this week, seeing Partey in build-up, often felt like watching a young Pep Guardiola at Barcelona. Very similar roles in picking up the ball from defense and ghosting past midfielders, or moving into spaces to receive the ball from fullbacks once the goalie or centre back had played out to them.

What Guardiola overlaid here were two specific things. First, Positional discipline. Fixing people to verticals on the field. This is the rigidity you saw for the first year under Arteta that pissed off a lot of fans. The second thing obviously was pressing, which is really adapted from Ralf Rangnick’s stable.

Wenger had a stunning offense. What’s changed now is that the pressing means that defense is always on, and the top teams generate more high turnovers and consequently more shots.

Burnwinter

Claudius Wenger had cutbacks. He spoke about them. It was part of what annoyed commentators about Wenger. The whole “Arsenal try to walk the ball into the net” criticism arose from cutbacks.

I think I said this above, but it's not about whether the manager's encouraging cutbacks, it's about whether there's a clear idea about tactical balance along with that encouragement, that the players sign up to.

A more straightforward example would be the high defensive line we started to play in the Fabregas years. The offensive advantages were clear, but we push up as high now (or even higher, given how deep and compact some opposing teams now shape up defensively) without as much defensive recklessness—something that's clear both from the way Xhaka and Zinchenko shuttle through their work in a roughly-6 position, and the importance that's been given to the highest quality at centre half in our recruitment.

Burnwinter

Right, but when you're on the ball, what are the end purposes of positional discipline?

Firstly, the player on the ball knows the rough areas for his passing options.

Secondly, the pass when executed covers ground leading to an overall quick movement of the ball across greater areas of the pitch, forcing a defensive response and creating space elsewhere.

Thirdly, the receiving player is in a position to continue this pattern.

Fourthly, if there's a turnover there's an upper limit on the mean time to recover and press.

While all of these aspects have been understood for a long time, the way this current Arsenal does things like peel the outer players off a double defensive row by repeatedly cycling the ball from the wide man to the 8 (Saka to Øde, or Martinelli to Xhaka / Zinchenko) goes far beyond the equivalents we saw in Wenger's era—when those players were (for example), Nasri plus Sagna pushing up—in the detail of its intentions.

Claudius

That’s simply down to defensive mindset shifting. We have gone from “Arsenal needs to get a defensive hard man in the middle” to Odegaard, the smallest chap on the field putting up eye popping defensive lines pretty much every single game. He covers more ground than everyone, and pretty much out tackles and out recovers everyone. And Jesus brings a smiles mindset.

So when you take that into account, you can start to do things like play your centre backs at the half way line, because defense is constantly on in front of them and they are simply a last line.

Burnwinter

Claudius That’s simply down to defensive mindset shifting.

Well, it would be, if that weren't empirically false due to two things I have already mentioned:

The aspects of role definition and positioning (Zinchenko and Xhaka) that have come along in addition to the hard press
The great emphasis in defensive investment in our recruiting

I appreciate a good analysis in terms of continuity with the Wenger (or Cruyff, or Chapman) eras as much as anyone, but it seems like a case of protesting too much when many things are much changed from how we previously played and built the squad.

Things are not the same, and on the whole they look better now. I see this as borne out by the extraordinary happiness in the squad, though we'll get to see how long this period of success, and that contentment persist.

Clrnc

Burnwinter Agree. I would go as far to say without Saliba this season we wouldn't be anywhere near as successful.

Claudius

Burnwinter
On squad build, yes I agree. But we must also agree on coherence. It goes back to what I always said when Arteta forest started. That the goalie and the entire defense would have to go. It highlights your points that systems need fit for purpose players.

Which again frustrated fans because there was often a cry that Arteta needs to do more with what he has. Which is not how strategy works.

lorddulaarsenal

Arteta works with incredible detail. We won’t have been subject to it all, but the shorts I’ve seen online have shown him talking about how best to position your body to receive the ball, the angles to tap the ball when creating space, and the optimum time to strike a shot and where to aim (eg high when going near post but that’s it’s often better to go far post as if the keeper saves it’s likely he’ll parry it in to a position where another player can follow up).

Fascinating stuff to my mind. Burnsy you’re spot on when saying that the joy comes from the intent to succeed and win as opposed to aesthetics

Burnwinter

lorddulaarsenal That's what I mean Dules … when you hear Arteta talking about "actions" (to which he routinely alludes in his pressers—"he had a bad action" is classic Arteta-speak) that's part of where the physics, biophysics and geometry come in. And it's not solely about those body shapes and forms of mental readiness, it's the relative movements of the whole side as well.

I get the sense that when one of our lads makes a mistake and Arteta raises it post match, the inquest is into whether everything about how he attempted to execute was correct, versus whether he succeeded. Also goes some way to explain the scrapping of players like Pépé … nothing to do with output, all to do with process and demonstrating the capacity to learn.

If you've got a craft you've spent years trying to perfect, it's easy to see how inspiring this approach would be for some players.

RocktheCasbah

Big Willie no, they won't. They'd basically won it before COVID happened. I remember being at my mate Gabs place in Andover and the shock of them finally losing to (of all teams) Watford at the end of February. It's Liverpool, I'm not a fan, but that was a phenomenal achievement.

Clrnc

RocktheCasbah I actually don't really remember the covid period. Who won what and what we did. It was just a terrible period all round.

Pointless football period. The FA Cup we won without fans was a shame too, did it against all odds and nobody there to see

Burnwinter

Claudius Which again frustrated fans because there was often a cry that Arteta needs to do more with what he has. Which is not how strategy works.

We're now at the point where it's clear Arteta's demands for patience and investment had a strong foundation. You can wind back into any manager's tenure and they'll be making that complaint, likely absent the evidence they have the ability to convert support, time and money into results. And very often they don't.

What we hear about Arteta is that he crisply articulates his plans upward and creates the conviction he knows what he's doing. Seems KSE were fully sold on him well before the fans were.

Don Pacifico

Claudius It highlights your points that systems need fit for purpose players.

Increasingly, I'm inclined to believe that it's players with certain capabilities (eg. Positional fluidity) rather than the specificity by position that we all originally understood. I think the fact that we've integrated someone like Zinchenko so well into the team when Martinez was our first choice for LB shows that attributes that enable positional fluidity (along with a host of personality traits) are what's important for our system rather than there being a specific template for each position in the pitch.

RocktheCasbah

Burnwinter What we hear about Arteta is that he crisply articulates his plans upward and creates the conviction he knows what he's doing. Seems KSE were fully sold on him well before the fans were.

I said it before, I think, and if I didn't I should have (great way to start a post). It was very clear, watching All Or Nothing that Arteta had built really strong relationships with both Edu and Josh. You could see it in Josh asking Arteta how he was when we had that horrible start, you could see it in Edu expressing the opinion that Mikel just needed to start building relationships with his players, "because tactically he is top". I remember mentioning that a few months back and being told it was just PR. We've seen the truth of it this season.

The problem is/ was we judge all managers and players based on what we see across 90 minutes every weekend, we don't see the hours of work and preparation that goes on behind the scenes, we don't really know, or we didn't, how things actually are. One of the things I've hated about Arteta is how cold and taciturn he's been in front of the cameras, but I understand it now. He knew where the standard needed to go, he was an Arsenal captain after all, and there was a lot of work to be done. Now he's got there he can present a happier, more relaxed image to the world. I imagine the same is true on the training ground - you can see how much of a mutual love fest is going on between him and his players every week.

Stan & Josh will have seen this (well, one of them will have) up close and personal on the regular across the last couple of seasons.

RocktheCasbah

Clrnc yeah, fair enough, I was just pointing out that Liverpool had done their damage by the time covid happened.

I've got a group of mates all 15 years older than me - we ended up watching A LOT of football together via Skype calls, so whilst it wasn't exactly a time any of us would remember fondly, we at least had each other whilst the football was on. It's a habit which we've not really broken either, apart from me going to games, or if one of us actually happens to be entertaining a real live person.

And the FA Cup win was still an FA Cup win. 😃

Burnwinter

Don Pacifico Feel that's how we approached the defensive rebuild: no glaring technical deficiencies, youth, quality and attitude. Whole back five is decent on the ball and the preferred fullbacks are shapeshifters who can do a job in midfield or at centre half. As an approach it has great alignment, because it made overall squad spending more efficient as well as maximising what can be done tactically.

Clrnc

Don Pacifico Don't you agree that both Martinez and Zinchenko have things in common? Playing out of their best position and having certain qualities that Arteta specifically wanted for that position? White and Tomiyasu are CBs as well, but playing at RB for our system demand.

Both Pep and Arteta requires very specific players to fit their ideology. There are other managers who are more versatile and still can get success. Football have more than one way of winning

Don Pacifico

Clrnc to a degree, yes but I also don't think that Martinez could have done the job that Zinchenko does in our team nor do I think the way we play now, is exactly how we'd play if we'd have bought Martinez.

The main thing on my mind is that the positional specificity required is not as rigid as we'd first thought and the capacity to be positionally fluid is as much a proof point of that fact as much as it isn't (if that makes sense 😛).

goon

Clrnc There are other managers who are more versatile and still can get success.

Not convinced this is true, at the very least it's becoming increasingly rare. Virtually all the top managers need specificity. I reckon the hardest part of being a manager these days is getting enough time and trust to be able to get your ideal team.

lorddulaarsenal

I don’t think I’ve been so excited and optimistic about our future prospects.

Maybe in Wenger’s first few years but, always felt other teams could close the gap and replicate the edge Arsene had. With Arteta mind I don’t think his style is straightforward to replicate. Also feel he’s more driven to reach the very top.

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