"The journey continues" - Mikel signs extension until 2025: Page 42 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

"The journey continues" - Mikel signs extension until 2025

Coombs

I mean, is it luck that we didn't overbid for those players and let them go elsewhere while we moved on to our other targets? I still think they're all top talents, that all would've improved us, and some still would.

Burnwinter

Don't think we'd be suffering too badly if we'd landed those alternative targets. The players we've been chasing, even for large sums, have been remarkably logical really.

Asterix

RocktheCasbah wrote:
jones wrote:
When I started following the club he was celebrated in N17 for winning some other London club their first silverware in a decade.

Truth be told from all I've heard and read about Graham he most likely would rate even higher on the prick scale.

It's definitely possible, but he also gave Arsenal the greatest of things after an extended period in the doldrums - hope.

I know it's been commented on before here, by invisibleman if I remember rightly, but there are so many parallels between George and what Mikel Arteta has done since he arrived here. The restoration of hope being just one, a trophy early on and the disbanding of cliques and overpaid stars another, the refusal to compromise on standards yet another and, of course, the creation of, and reliance on, a youthful core.

That was me and Invisi.

@[deleted] I don't think it's fair to say it's dumb luck that you get outbid on a player and then sign a different one who turns out to be excellent. I think it shows a very smart transfer policy - there is probably a decent list for every position, and once a particular player is brought in then the playing system is tweaked.

I also don't particularly care if Arteta is a bit of a prick - but I also don't think he is. I think he has shown he genuinely cares about his players - i.e. those who are on board with his vision. He was pretty ruthless with those who weren't and I'm also fine with that. I hope he's here for a few years still with most of this squad and a few new players - if he is I think we will be winning things again.

Clrnc

Some of them simply chose to go somewhere else we ain't outbid. To pretend that it was all a grandmaster plan and part of the scheme certainly isn't correct, we lucked out in many of those moves.

It's also correct to say we made many mistakes along the way which could have gotten us towards top 4 way faster, which is part of having a rookie manager. The difference is that there are a few here who never doubted the manager and even said they will be happy as long as we are not relegated, some stop believing in the project after some horrendous runs (which include goon and a few others by the way who more than once said Arteta should go :p), some who never believed and never wanted him right from the start and those who hates him as a manager.

Anyway if he wins the league this year he can sack everyone, be a prick or get a 10 year contract it's all worth it

jones

Coombs Asterix you still misunderstand - I'm saying we were lucky we did not get our first choice targets because they were bad fits or poor players.

Obviously who knows how they'd have turned out here but hard to imagine us first with Buendia and Tapsoba instead of the ones we signed, a) because Buendia can't even nail a starting spot at Villa and b) Tapsobas form crashed in the last 18 months plus he wouldn't be nearly as good wide as White. That isn't planning that's simply luck, which is always involved in any good season but it should be acknowledged as such too.

Claudius

It's interesting reading the assessment of Arteta and Edu's work.

I think a lot of the current critique is falling into the same traps that happened over the last few years when there was fiery criticism of pretty much every personnel decision Arteta made whether it was Aubameyang, AMN, Saliba, White, Guendouzi, Odegaard, Ramsdale, or Pepe. Every one of those decisions were typically pored over in a micro fashion rather than reviewed more globally - what are these decisions as a group contributing. In the end, some of those decisions were accretive and others dilutive, but taken collectively they were wildly successful.

And that is the way any successful organisation works. You make a series of bets. Some of them work, some of them don't. But as long as you are building the underlying systems and capabilities for longterm success you will, in general, do well most of the time. For us, these were

a very clear playing plan
a very clear plan on player profiles - young, hardworking, great footwork/passing, good speed.
aggressive player trading to acquire players who delivered on the plan, and dispose of players who did not

If you look at Liverpool, they had a very clear plan. Got players who fit. Very successful player trading. Ox and Keita were not so successful, but the 80% of their big transfers were very successful because there was a clear longterm plan in place. So it would be easy for Liverpool fans to rant and rave about Ox and Keita being shit. But that would be an unfair assessment

FEBravo

At the end of the day, the manager should be judged on results, and even more so when some decisions seem to be based on his personal preferences and what may appear as arrogance. So i agree with you Claud to a large extent (with the exception of Saliba which just didn't make any sense, and I'm inclined to think this was just a fuck up - maybe based on arrogance). And when you jettison your main striker and end up missing out on CL from a position of strength, and when that comes on the heels of two 8th place finishes, then of course it leaves room for serious questioning, when on top you add his lack of a resume. So I confess I was not overly impressed, and his personality and what I took as arrogance (I am the solution) also irritated me.

That being said, this has showed that patience is a virtue, and kudos to the club for keeping on believing in Arteta and the process, and to him for staying true to his vision. We'll never know if someone else would have been able to achieve this faster or not with the same level of backing, but that's neither here nor there. If I wanted him out because I didn't think he delivered, then I also need to put my hand up and say that for now he is delivering and he has my full backing. I may never warm up to him as a person, or maybe I will, but again, what I want is for us to win and play entertaining football. this is happening now so let's just enjoy the ride while we can.

I understand this is how forums etc work, but it would be great if rather than now revisiting all of this (the bitterness, the gloating, I told you so, etc), we could just enjoy the ride while it lasts. Whenever the ride looks like it is ending or slowing down, which hopefully will not be for a few seasons at least, we can then revisit this argument about whether Super Mik is still the right person for the job.

jones

Claudius wrote:
It's interesting reading the assessment of Arteta and Edu's work.

I think a lot of the current critique is falling into the same traps that happened over the last few years when there was fiery criticism of pretty much every personnel decision Arteta made whether it was Aubameyang, AMN, Saliba, White, Guendouzi, Odegaard, Ramsdale, or Pepe. Every one of those decisions were typically pored over in a micro fashion rather than reviewed more globally - what are these decisions as a group contributing. In the end, some of those decisions were accretive and others dilutive, but taken collectively they were wildly successful.

And that is the way any successful organisation works. You make a series of bets. Some of them work, some of them don't. But as long as you are building the underlying systems and capabilities for longterm success you will, in general, do well most of the time. For us, these were

a very clear playing plan

a very clear plan on player profiles - young, hardworking, great footwork/passing, good speed.

aggressive player trading to acquire players who delivered on the plan, and dispose of players who did not

If you look at Liverpool, they had a very clear plan. Got players who fit. Very successful player trading. Ox and Keita were not so successful, but the 80% of their big transfers were very successful because there was a clear longterm plan in place. So it would be easy for Liverpool fans to rant and rave about Ox and Keita being shit. But that would be an unfair assessment

So it's not allowed for them or anyone else to say Ox was a horrid transfer that anyone could've seen coming from a mile away?

I think what you're calling "global review" is typically picking and choosing in a manner that suits the view you're trying to find. You can decide handling Auba and Pepe the way we did is a major factor for us looking great this season - which might be true - or you can say their treatment had a role in us finishing 8th and 5th in seasons goneby - which is 100% true - below Spurs who had four managers in the same time and had no business whatsoever finishing above us.

Again no problem with your plan, I said before even during darker days that I was pretty happy with our acquisitions. Just don't see why it's so offensive to admit there's a whole load of luck involved (and some trial and horrible error in the past too).

jones

FEBravo wrote:
At the end of the day, the manager should be judged on results, and even more so when some decisions seem to be based on his personal preferences and what may appear as arrogance. So i agree with you Claud to a large extent (with the exception of Saliba which just didn't make any sense, and I'm inclined to think this was just a fuck up - maybe based on arrogance). And when you jettison your main striker and end up missing out on CL from a position of strength, and when that comes on the heels of two 8th place finishes, then of course it leaves room for serious questioning, when on top you add his lack of a resume. So I confess I was not overly impressed, and his personality and what I took as arrogance (I am the solution) also irritated me.

That being said, this has showed that patience is a virtue, and kudos to the club for keeping on believing in Arteta and the process, and to him for staying true to his vision. We'll never know if someone else would have been able to achieve this faster or not with the same level of backing, but that's neither here nor there. If I wanted him out because I didn't think he delivered, then I also need to put my hand up and say that for now he is delivering and he has my full backing. I may never warm up to him as a person, or maybe I will, but again, what I want is for us to win and play entertaining football. this is happening now so let's just enjoy the ride while we can.

I understand this is how forums etc work, but it would be great if rather than now revisiting all of this (the bitterness, the gloating, I told you so, etc), we could just enjoy the ride while it lasts.

Very well said.

Super Mik

:boris:

Claudius

But that’s the exactly the thing FEBravo. Go to Chelsea forums right now. They have a really good manager. He’s trying to make sense of his squad and does a lot of things that day-to-day may seem counterintuitive. But he needs real game time to understand his team to determine the best path forward. In the mean time, they’re sinking. He could alternatively, cobble together his best 11 and make a go of top 4 and not really learn anything other than what one can extract from a bunch of veterans in their preferred positions.

On Saliba. I’m happy with the overall management. I just think we made a mistake with the loan that didn’t materialize. It was the time when Edu and Arteta most showed their inexperience. Saliba is a good player. We should have had alternative loans ready in case St Etienne failed and not waited for a deadline day disaster.

Asterix

jones wrote:
Coombs Asterix you still misunderstand - I'm saying we were lucky we did not get our first choice targets because they were bad fits or poor players.

Obviously who knows how they'd have turned out here but hard to imagine us first with Buendia and Tapsoba instead of the ones we signed, a) because Buendia can't even nail a starting spot at Villa and b) Tapsobas form crashed in the last 18 months plus he wouldn't be nearly as good wide as White. That isn't planning that's simply luck, which is always involved in any good season but it should be acknowledged as such too.

Ah ok, yes that makes perfect sense.

Qwiss

Claudius wrote:
Go to Chelsea forums right now. They have a really good manager. He’s trying to make sense of his squad and does a lot of things that day-to-day may seem counterintuitive. But he needs real game time to understand his team to determine the best path forward. In the mean time, they’re sinking. He could alternatively, cobble together his best 11 and make a go of top 4 and not really learn anything other than what one can extract from a bunch of veterans in their preferred positions.

He's only been there a few months though. If he finishes outside the top 4 with Chelsea for 3 seasons in a row we'll all be laughing at them and him.

Clrnc

I think a huge credit must go to the owners and Edu, because like what everyone said no top club will have this kind of faith after those 3 seasons we endured.

Every season when we got worse they continued to back us more with more funds

RocktheCasbah

I'm not sure it really matters now, but I'm not sure Arsenal were ever really interested enough in Buendia to actually put a bid in, were they? Ødegaard was the target all along, they were just waiting for Real Madrid to realise they didn't really want him, which duly happened.

QuincyAbeyie

Pretty much everyone reported a bid. Probably because they weren't sure if Ødegaard would be allowed to leave though.

RocktheCasbah

Difficult to know who and what to believe sometimes, isn't it?

According to this, there was an initial proposal, but seems like Ode was always the principal target:

https://tribuna.com/en/news/arsenal-2021-06-09-romano-names-key-reason-behind-arsenal-losing-out-on-buendia/

QuincyAbeyie

What does it matter whether they made a 30m bid or a 30m proposal?

Claudius

Ode was always the principal target. If Buendia was the principal target, we would’ve bid up and beaten Villa. We were willing to pay massive fees for Ramsdale and White because we believed they were fundamental to our system. So if we really wanted Buendia, we would’ve made an effort. The priority was always Odegaard.

Clrnc

Ode wasn't a primary target because he himself said it was late on that Madrid allowed him to leave and he was happy to join us.

Unless you're saying we have a 3rd backup after Ode in the event late in Aug Madrid didn't let him leave or that we wouldn't have signed anyone.

RocktheCasbah

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
What does it matter whether they made a 30m bid or a 30m proposal?

It doesn't really.

All I was disagreeing with was the notion that Ødegaard was the back up plan because we failed to land Buendia. Seems clear to me Ode was always the target and Arsenal chose not to follow up their interest in Buendia as a result.

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