CL/EL 21/22: Page 25 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

CL/EL 21/22

Clrnc

You seem to miss out that they have to even lead 2 0 in the first place. Who put them in that position?

Is like saying Kidderminster manager is a bottler having led West Ham all the way and still lost to them in the last minute. Very weird thinking. Being punished for doing better than expected in the first place

Sicario

Clrnc wrote:
You seem to miss out that they have to even lead 2 0 in the first place. Who put them in that position?

Is like saying Kidderminster manager is a bottler having led West Ham all the way and still lost to them in the last minute. Very weird thinking. Being punished for doing better than expected in the first place

Who has the better European pedigree, Spurs or Ajax?

Would you guys swap Ajax manager for Arteta?

QuincyAbeyie

Sicario wrote:
Quincy Abeyie wrote:
Spurs is a better team than Ajax with far greater resources, losing to them was expected. That he came close in the first place was the achievement. You seem to deal in absolute values regarding all managers of smaller teams in that you expect them to get the same results as you would of managers at bigger teams and that the difference between the results is because of the manager.

Losing to Spurs was expected when you were leading 2-0 from the first tie with 20 mins left to play of the second tie? No way Jose

What you asked in this post isn't what I said.,like Clrnc pointed out. The expected outcome was to lose to Spurs without having that lead first.

QuincyAbeyie

Sicario wrote:
Clrnc wrote:
You seem to miss out that they have to even lead 2 0 in the first place. Who put them in that position?

Is like saying Kidderminster manager is a bottler having led West Ham all the way and still lost to them in the last minute. Very weird thinking. Being punished for doing better than expected in the first place

Who has the better European pedigree, Spurs or Ajax?

You can't be serious 😆

Clrnc

So when Red Star Belgrade lost to us few seasons ago their manager was a bottler because they have better European Pedigree? 😆

The negative 39 is really there for a reason ffs.

goon

They definitely bottled it against Spurs and I actually think ETH was partially to blame. But as far as "bottle jobs" go not finishing the job against a heavy favourite comes well below some of the results from some very big name managers (as favorites) in the CL. Pep several times over.

Sicario

Clrnc wrote:
So when Red Star Belgrade lost to us few seasons ago their manager was a bottler because they have better European Pedigree? 😆

The negative 39 is really there for a reason ffs.

Do you think Ajax got to the semi finals that year by chance?

Was it a fluke they beat Juve in the quarters?

Comparing ajax and spurs with West Ham and Kiddminster is a joke.

Gap between Ajax and Spurs not as big as you making. Making Spurs like peak Barca ffs.

Let’s see your predictions? So far Arteta and Ben White are humbling you. You have zero credibility when it comes to football opinions.

Sicario

goon wrote:
They definitely bottled it against Spurs and I actually think ETH was partially to blame. But as far as "bottle jobs" go not finishing the job against a heavy favourite comes well below some of the results from some very big name managers (as favorites) in the CL. Pep several times over.

Spurs were not ‘heavy favourites’.

You guys seem to forget who Spurs are.

Ricky1985

I definitely think you guys are putting Tottenham, their recent history and the level of their team at the time, on too much of a pedestal relative to Ajax.

If it were one of the big boys Ajax were facing then I would absolutely agree, but it was a Kane-less Tottenham (not that he is that great, but he's still their best player). And Tottenham haven't got near a sniff of a Champions League semi-final in their entire history.

The quality difference between the two teams was not significant either way, depending on which way you saw it.

QuincyAbeyie

Sicario wrote:
Clrnc wrote:
So when Red Star Belgrade lost to us few seasons ago their manager was a bottler because they have better European Pedigree? 😆

The negative 39 is really there for a reason ffs.

Let’s see your predictions? So far Arteta and Ben White are humbling you. You have zero credibility when it comes to football opinions.

😆

QuincyAbeyie

Sicario wrote:
goon wrote:
They definitely bottled it against Spurs and I actually think ETH was partially to blame. But as far as "bottle jobs" go not finishing the job against a heavy favourite comes well below some of the results from some very big name managers (as favorites) in the CL. Pep several times over.

Spurs were not ‘heavy favourites’.

You guys seem to forget who Spurs are.

The odds of Spurs winning the CL before the tournament were 20 while those of Ajax were 150.

I guess some would say they were heavily favoring Spurs.

goon

Have you seen the Ajax team Ricky? They're all middling PL players at best with the exception of a couple of very good but very young prospects. That the likes of van de Beek, Tadic and Ziyech looked so good is more a testament to ETH.

Eriksen, Son, Lucas, Alderwerald etc all have more pedigree and in terms of budget, there's no competition.

Ricky1985

De Ligt, De Jong, van der Beek and Ziyech are good players, especially the first two. Mazaroui, Tagliafico, Blind, Neres and Tadic are all more than decent too. There's a reason they played Tottenhan off the park for 180 minutes, and it's not only because of the "Ajax way" or magic by Ten Haag.

That Tottenham team was tragic, they fluked their way to the final, whilst losing every couple of games just about in the league/cups. Some good players, sure, but that were also well on the wane.

jones

Whether there's a big difference between the two doesn't make a difference, the point is losing a knockout tie under those circumstances - Moura had one of the greatest performances in the history of the competition to be fair to the little shit - can't be called a bottle job of the manager.

Bottling is what United did in 2012 with an eight point lead over City or what Gerrard did after 'we go again', but not a coach who got a team of young talents and decentish talents past Madrid and Juventus in the CL ffs.

KingslandBarge

Clrnc wrote:
Typical United. Get in Atleti shithousery

I thought that was an extremely undignified exit last night. They subbed on anyone they could muster to comprise a very expensive cluster of premium signings incapable of single goal, clear chance. A reflection of years of gluttonous spending, delusion and poor strategic thinking on display. Drinks hurled at Simeone as he ran away with the W. Fernandes default whinging behavior. Rashford absolutely broken.

It did however evoke bad memories of our recent eliminations to Monaco, Galatasaray and Atletico in recent years. Futile search for a goal in many of those eliminations. I hope we have better campaigns in the future, whenever that happens.

Clrnc

Sicario wrote:
Let’s see your predictions? So far Arteta and Ben White are humbling you. You have zero credibility when it comes to football opinions.

It probably would make you look really silly but a simple search would show that I rate Ben White as the best English defender back in May even before you heard of him. The fact that after that he really disappointed at the first half of the year and is nowhere ready-made 50m defender and I felt that 50m would have been better spent prioritising a CM changes none of that. I still believe having Saliba in our team and a 50m CM over White+Xhaka would be more beneficial, and given that amount of times Xhaka costed us + Saliba's peformances for Marseille it's even more evident.

I have said many times hiring Arteta is the right call, letting him stay when he was underperforming is the wrong call. He wouldn't have proven anyone wrong here given that not many were in favouring of hiring him in the first place, including some Mourinho and Conte apologists.

Anyway lets not move the goal posts from a ridiculous opinion of calling a knockout fluke from the overwhelming favorites a bottling job, especially when they over went through on away goals and some terrible refereeing.

Ricky1985

I do think there's something in the idea of great managers being able to get their teams over the line in those huge moments. Obviously it's the players that have to do it, but the manager has an immensely important job to keep them calm and make them believe.

I'm not writing the Ten Haag off as a bottle job in any way, but I haven't sensed that Simeone, Guardiola, Klopp, Mourinho, Wenger, Fergie unidentifiable "thing" that means they tend to win these big moments way more than they lose them over the course of their careers.

QuincyAbeyie

I actually can't believe that it's the CL stint where he got past Real Madrid and Juventus with fucking Ajax is the thing that's used against this guy for not also getting past Tottenham to the final.

goon

Ricky1985 wrote:
I haven't sensed that Simeone, Guardiola, Klopp, Mourinho, Wenger, Fergie unidentifiable "thing" that means they tend to win these big moments way more than they lose them over the course of their careers.

Given the teams they've had and some of the games they've been knocked out in, I'd argue all of those guys bar Simeone have had numerous moments where they've lack that 'thing' to win in those big moments, especially Pep who has arguably been in charge of the best team in the competition almost every year but has found himself losing out to lesser sides regularly.

I remember Wenger, referring to PSG or City, saying that to find yourself winning in those moments regularly you need to win the whole thing and earn that pedigree - and I think that's more true than anything the manager can do. Unless you've managed to get over the obstacle at some point in recent history, the players area going to end up doubting themselves at some point - and suddenly, even for just a 1/4 of the tie, you'll find yourself frozen mentally and have the tie slip away from you.

Clrnc

Fergie himself has lost many UCL ties when he was overwhelming fav and had a superb team. Heck, he was even knocked out of the group stages twice, once even by Benfica. That's what you call bottling.

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