Ben White Signing Confirmed: Page 28 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Ben White Signing Confirmed

RocktheCasbah

Indeed, interesting to have read a few posters telling everyone Rob Holding was our best defender...

JazzG

Don Pacifico wrote:
My recollection is that the general consensus (regardless of stance on Arteta) was that we overpaid for White and that Saliba was a great prospect.

That is exactly it. Also even though we did overpay on White he is a decent CB and can fill in at RB. I think around the £35m would have been fair but as Brighton have shown they aren't going to give their players up on the cheap.

He was 23 when we signed him, with him being home grown it helps free up a slot for other players. Also ensures if we do sell we would get a more respectful fee.

The loan worked out great for Saliba in the end, not many CBs at that age will get 50+ games playing for a PL club. As long as he signs an extension we all good...

flobaba

Did the loan work out great for us though? This is the question.

JazzG

Saliba looks like he has come back as a much better player so I'd say it does. No guarantee he'd have played as many games for us. I'd say 60% of our season was a bit of a shambles so not exactly the stable environment you'd want a young promising CB to play in. A few torrid performances could wreck the confidence of most young players. Especially at a club like Arsenal where the media are always out to get you.

When they are that young they are going to make mistakes and you need to protect them. Wenger spoke of how when he plays young players he knew they'd cost him points. Defender and Goalkeeper mistakes usually lead to conceded goals so are judged more harshly.

flobaba

So there's the assumption that I take issue with. Nobody says he has to have played 50 or more games for us. But keep him in house and let him compete with White, and see who comes out tops. I have no doubts whatsoever that he would have been seen as a first team option sooner rather than later, and we wouldn't have had to suffer games with Rob Holding as our only available partner to Gabriel or move Xhaka to left back or whatever contortions Arteta was having to perform last term.

Again, if it was Arsene in charge there is zero chance we loan out a talent of this magnitude to "protect" him. The protection bit is overrated also. We watched Gabriel make his mistakes, get his red cards, and learn from it and move on. We watched Ben White in his first game against Brentford get torn to pieces, and nobody crucified him either. We didn't make any moves to recall the kid from the loan in January even though he was tearing it up in France pretty much from day one, and everyone there was raving about him. Instead we had to put up with Holding and Mari and eventually Xhaka playing in the backline...

What frustrates me about this "debate" is that it's actually quite clear to me that we could have and should have handled it better and kept him in the fold. Forget about Arteta. Someone else has to be able to see the talent and point it out. Imagine having an option to have a budding Fabregas last season, but then loaning him to Rayo Vallecano or wherever, saying we needed to protect him because midfield is so sensitive and if he lost the ball there people would not forgive him, and besides we have Xhaka who is more experienced, blah blah blah. It's just ridiculous. If talent is good enough it is old enough. And it's up to the decision makers at the club, notably the head coach/manager to recognize it even before everyone else does, and make the right call. Why is this even slightly controversial?

JazzG

I agree Arsene wouldn't loan him out but around that time when we had those young players and they were costing us our fans we screwing at them and Wenger.

Saliba played more games last season then he did in his previous two. COVID completely fucked things up for him and he needed games. Maybe we already would be a first teamer for us if he stayed but I think he's a better player for having all those games under his belt. Every game you play at that age is crucial imo. Tavares is another who I think he'll come back a much improved player after his loan spell.

One of my main problems with loaning him out was we should have made him sign an extension before we did.

flobaba

See, the difference is night and day between him and Tavares. If you watch say just 3 of the best games from both players and had to decide whom to loan out, it wouldn't be much of a debate. You will recall I kept asking last season who was responsible for scouting Tavares. I wanted his head. He was that bad at times. But we kept Tavares, and gave him a shot, while we farmed out Saliba.

And my position which isn't too far-fetched is that if he had stayed he would have given us a (better) quality option off the bench at critical moments in the season, and also advanced his adaptation to the country, his teammates, and the league, which would have put us in better starting position for this season, and perhaps even helped turn some of our unfortunate losses into draws resulting in us qualifying for the champions league "ahead of time".

Plus we probably did not try to get him to sign an extension, because we obviously did not do a proper evaluation of his abilities. We just loaned him out to get him out of the way (or "protect him") so we could focus on the players the manager had (pre)determined would be able to perform to his desires.

JazzG

flobaba wrote:
Plus we probably did not try to get him to sign an extension, because we obviously did not do a proper evaluation of his abilities. We just loaned him out to get him out of the way (or "protect him") so we could focus on the players the manager had (pre)determined would be able to perform to his desires.

That would be pure negligence if that was the case. I would say I don't agree with you but the way this club has been run in the past 10-15 years nothing is off the table.

Ray

I think White could be an option for CDM where Partey currently plays.

Gazza M

[font=Source Sans Pro]Plus we probably did not try to get him to sign an extension, because we obviously did not do a proper evaluation of his abilities. We just loaned him out to get him out of the way (or "protect him") so we could focus on the players the manager had (pre)determined would be able to perform to his desires.[/font]

that's exactly how it's gone down. we're reactively trying to get him to renew.

Burnwinter

flobaba wrote:
See, the difference is night and day between him and Tavares. If you watch say just 3 of the best games from both players and had to decide whom to loan out, it wouldn't be much of a debate. You will recall I kept asking last season who was responsible for scouting Tavares. I wanted his head. He was that bad at times. But we kept Tavares, and gave him a shot, while we farmed out Saliba.

Come on, that was just because Tierney's a crock, same reason that now that Tavares actually is on loan, we've signed Zinchenko.

In Saliba's case surely the loan was Arteta being risk averse. It looks less bright in hindsight, but things can always go pear-shaped Senderos style for a young defender.

Anzac

Ray wrote:
I think White could be an option for CDM where Partey currently plays.

Have thought the same and it will be interesting to see what happens when Tomi is fit to start.
Alternatively having White and Zinchenko playing as inverted FBs would also address many of the distribution issues with Elneny as DM.

flobaba

Burnwinter wrote:
flobaba wrote:
See, the difference is night and day between him and Tavares. If you watch say just 3 of the best games from both players and had to decide whom to loan out, it wouldn't be much of a debate. You will recall I kept asking last season who was responsible for scouting Tavares. I wanted his head. He was that bad at times. But we kept Tavares, and gave him a shot, while we farmed out Saliba.

Come on, that was just because Tierney's a crock, same reason that now that Tavares actually is on loan, we've signed Zinchenko.

In Saliba's case surely the loan was Arteta being risk averse. It looks less bright in hindsight, but things can always go pear-shaped Senderos style for a young defender.

I only used him in comparison because Jazz mentioned his name. The circumstances of their procurement and loans are clearly quite different.

RowJimmy

Gazza M wrote:

[font=Source Sans Pro]Plus we probably did not try to get him to sign an extension, because we obviously did not do a proper evaluation of his abilities. We just loaned him out to get him out of the way (or "protect him") so we could focus on the players the manager had (pre)determined would be able to perform to his desires.[/font]

that's exactly how it's gone down. we're reactively trying to get him to renew.

People seem to me to have very strange ideas about when renewals are likely.

banduan

yeah wtf is all this conjecture being placed as fact.

Burnwinter

Contract renewals being what they are and his apparent status being what it is, it seems likely Saliba runs his deal down before making a big demand in advance of next summer. That's always been the case.

I just worry his outfit will go in too tough.

flobaba

banduan wrote:
yeah wtf is all this conjecture being placed as fact.

I’d say right around 99% of what we do here is speculation and conjecture. 🙂

And nope, that percentage isn’t fact.

@[deleted]. Contract renewals are due as soon as you can tie a good player down if you have inclusive and definite plans for them. Wouldn’t you want Saka already tied down to a long term contract, say for another 5-6 years when he will be approaching his prime? Why shouldn’t the club want (or have wanted) to lock down Wilo asap as well if we actually truly believed he was the best defensive talent we have seen in decades?

flobaba

Burnwinter wrote:
I just worry his outfit will go in too tough.

Fear not boss. We’ve got mad Walmart money.

The market is what it is. If want to keep him, we will pay up. With the way we’ve been spraying the cash about in recent seasons it’s not like we can’t.

Burnwinter

Because Saliba's people wouldn't accept an offer now if they're thinking he can run it down to a year left and attract enquiries from half the top clubs in Europe ... the same simple reason extensions rarely happen two years out for young stars.

Burnwinter

flobaba wrote:
Burnwinter wrote:
I just worry his outfit will go in too tough.

Fear not boss. We’ve got mad Walmart money.

The market is what it is. If want to keep him, we will pay up. With the way we’ve been spraying the cash about in recent seasons it’s not like we can’t.

You keep saying this confidently, but a protracted wage battle that goes bad with one of our youngsters is one of the most likely ways this current feelgood Arsenal squad starts to fracture. It's one reason we need to start advancing up the table with this group.

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