Premier League 21/22: Page 57 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Premier League 21/22

jones

goon wrote:
jones wrote:
We finished 5th with 70 points under Emery then collapsed the season after, Arteta has been given more money than anyone else to spend afterwards and has delivered consecutive 8th place finishes. Yet you're still flip flopping on whether he's the right man for us

I understand not being convinced by Tuchel yet and while I don't agree whatsoever I can understand that some people still think Arteta might turn out a good manager. Holding both views at the same time is just ridiculous though

edit was in response to oft but even more true for Ricky

It's an entirely consistent view point though when you consider in both instances I am (or was in Arteta's case) saying that more time is needed to make an accurate assessment. Tuchel may turn out to be great for Chelsea, I'm just not impressed so far.

Admittedly I was lauding Arteta as the second coming after the FA Cup win but some unashamedly delusional bias has to be allowed for.

Your second paragraph kinda completely invalidates your first though, Tuchel is on track for 80 points in the calendar year while having played every single cup game, within two points of 1st this season, reached last year's FA Cup final and won the CL. If Arteta had done that I'm pretty sure you'd be impressed.

Fair enough if you acknowledge you're biased though. We all are to some extent

jones

Ricky1985 wrote:
jones wrote:
We finished 5th with 70 points under Emery then collapsed the season after, Arteta has been given more money than anyone else to spend afterwards and has delivered consecutive 8th place finishes. Yet you're still flip flopping on whether he's the right man for us

I understand not being convinced by Tuchel yet and while I don't agree whatsoever I can understand that some people still think Arteta might turn out a good manager. Holding both views at the same time is just ridiculous though

edit was in response to oft but even more true for Ricky

We've been over this too many times now, so I'm not going re-litigate the case for Arteta and the Arsenal re-building job. You know my reasoning even if you don't agree, and with that said it's surely easy to understand how I would see a big difference between Arteta/Arsenal and Tuchel (or Conte)/Chelsea?

That's quite apart from the fact that no one anywhere is discussing Mikel Arteta as a current elite manager - that's not debate anyone is having.

Of course we've had the discussion a bunch of times Ricky, you're the only one who keeps saying how the Arsenal job is the hardest in the whole world so of course it'll come up again 😆 being honest I think you're extremely harsh on almost every manager, squad and player in England and Europe, surely you understand how people will notice the discrepancy in your treatment of Arteta and everyone else?

I wasn't talking about Arteta as an elite manager either. I'm talking about you guys saying the jury is out on Tuchel when he's achieved quite a lot in under one year while extending the same courtesy to Arteta after two full years of failure bar an FA Cup fluke. You can say how Chelsea are better than us but look at the team they're putting out last match day and tell me they are 20+ points better per season.

goon

jones wrote:
goon wrote:
It's an entirely consistent view point though when you consider in both instances I am (or was in Arteta's case) saying that more time is needed to make an accurate assessment. Tuchel may turn out to be great for Chelsea, I'm just not impressed so far.

Admittedly I was lauding Arteta as the second coming after the FA Cup win but some unashamedly delusional bias has to be allowed for.

Your second paragraph kinda completely invalidates your first though, Tuchel is on track for 80 points in the calendar year while having played every single cup game, within two points of 1st this season, reached last year's FA Cup final and won the CL. If Arteta had done that I'm pretty sure you'd be impressed.

Fair enough if you acknowledge you're biased though. We all are to some extent

The bias plays it's part on the surface but when you get down to the details the viewpoints are still not all that different. If you really probed me on Arteta back then I wouldn't have rubbished your concerns, most of my optimism was based on the assumption of an upwards trajectory and 'trusting the process'.

If a Chelsea fan or anyone on here said Tuchel is showing some promise with Chelsea I wouldn't really bat an eyelid, and I did think last season he laid down some good foundations. Similarly when others expressed doubts about Arteta even after the FA Cup win I wasn't jumping on them saying they're being ridiculous.

But using the first months of a managers reign to form any definitive conclusions is flaky territory for me.

Qwiss

goon wrote:
😆

Nah that's not true, I'm not dismissing Tuchel at all, I'm just not convinced by the body of his work so far. Long term it may work out but it's way too early to say he's transformed them.

Qwiss! wrote:
Tuchel turned Chelsea around immediately though. They were well outside the CL spots under Lampard and the difference under Tuchel is significant. Is he a genius manager, maybe, he has it all to prove. I've said before I think their footballs shit and they'll finish 3rd though. He's certainly a competent manager though and I think he has at least brought Chelsea up to their level. Needs to get more from Lukaku (or whoever else plays striker) if he wants to really make a mark at Chelsea (I know he wont the CL but so did DiMatteo).

That's not really that hard though, Chelsea finished 4th under Lampard who's hardly considered a prodigy, and then went out and spent £250m. They actually looked great at the start of last season, to the point where I thought they were title contenders before they went on a bad run over the space of 1-2 months. Coming in and getting them winning is hardly turning water into wine and they've actually regressed this season.

True enough, suppose I'm just envious cos I'd love to have someone like that come in here and turn our mess around in a similar fashion. Its just by comparison he looks an absolute genius.

Anzac

I see both MU and TH have the same form with 3 consecutive wins, which is the best current form other than MC & LFC.
Will be interesting to see how long they can keep it going with MU in particular having a favourable run of fixture up to the New Year's break, and TH having a slightly tougher run with games v LCFC and LFC.

banduan

Why do commentators seem to give Leeds a pass? If it was Newcastle getting battered that way their defence would get every kind of criticism sent their way. They were absolutely atrocious.

Qwiss

Looks like Rafa might be out at Everton. They're probably going to replace him with the best up and coming former Everton player turned manager they can find, Wayne Rooney.

goon

I'm sure they'll sneak another win but Chelsea look really terrible once again against a terrible Everton side missing their only two players of value.

QuincyAbeyie

Ffs Goon 😆

goon

You were saying?

goon

Saul is so terrible 😆

Bosscielny

Tuchel showing real bravery today. 15 minutes after taking one of their 5 defenders off for a holding midfielder, he's now used his last sub to take another defender off to bring on another defender.

Fair play to him. I always thought he played quite negatively and defensive since turning up to England, but he's really making me eat my words today.

Just need a late Chelsea winner to raise the spirits, especially after yesterdays result.

KingslandBarge

someone really needed to say it. fuck that guy, his 3ATB with booty fullbacks

Both Liverpool and Chelsea have been lucking points for weeks. Same thing bound to happen.

QuincyAbeyie

goon wrote:
Saul is so terrible 😆

I wonder how that happens. One thing is not acclimating to a new league, but he was one of the best CMs in the world a few years ago and now he's just turned 27 and looks like garbage.

Bosscielny wrote:
Tuchel showing real bravery today. 15 minutes after taking one of their 5 defenders off for a holding midfielder, he's now used his last sub to take another defender off to bring on another defender.

Fair play to him. I always thought he played quite negatively and defensive since turning up to England, but he's really making me eat my words today.

Just need a late Chelsea winner to raise the spirits, especially after yesterdays result.

What even is this post? 😆

Bosscielny

goon

Pickford trolling 😆

I reckon we can catch Chelsea if they keep playing like this.

Their next set of games:

Wolves, Villa, Brighton, Liverpool, City, Spurs, Palace, Leicester

Meatwad

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
goon wrote:
Saul is so terrible 😆

I wonder how that happens. One thing is not acclimating to a new league, but he was one of the best CMs in the world a few years ago and now he's just turned 27 and looks like garbage.

we know how that happens, we have partey. it's called don diego simeone.

jones

Saul's form crashed early in his last season at Atletico though, it's the whole reason they let him go to Chelsea.

There are innumerable reasons why players lose form "before their time" like Saul has, some physiological others psychological then others exogenic.

mentalvortex

It has happened to a handful of players in my days of following football where there is clear cut reason.

Most notably, Mendieta went from being voted the best midfielder in europe to playing for relegation battling Middlesbrough in a span of couple of years when he was at his supposed peak years.

jones

Mendieta was a bad case, definitely. You could say however he only really worked as part of his home club, many guys struggle in different surroundings. There were gigantic expectations before his move too, he was one of the best midfielders in Europe but was expected to replace Veron who was similarly good in the by far strongest league in the world at the time. You're right though that one expected him to crash so badly.

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