Has Arteta Truly Turned it Around?: Page 86 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Has Arteta Truly Turned it Around?

Bring Back Kerrea Gilbert

How do these professional top flight coaches come to have such pathetic outlooks on football and how it should be played?

Clrnc

Klaus wrote:
Definitely van Gaal, although there's a lot of Moyes in there too. He even brought in van Gaal's old assistant from the United years. It was the first sign that Arteta shouldn't be trusted. I have never seen any team play worse football than that United side did, but some of the stuff we've produced lately come pretty close. The common denominator is of course Stuivenberg.

I think we play much worse football than LVG's United.

Claudius

Klaus wrote:
Definitely van Gaal, although there's a lot of Moyes in there too. He even brought in van Gaal's old assistant from the United years. It was the first sign that Arteta shouldn't be trusted. I have never seen any team play worse football than that United side did, but some of the stuff we've produced lately come pretty close. The common denominator is of course Stuivenberg.

I may take heat for this, but I wish he’d called Sam Allardyce. Sam’s incredibly knowledgeable, innovative, and has had to make tough game time decisions. He knows how to play nasty football and also played good football in the Okocha/Campos days. He’d be able to help Arteta set up defense properly, figure out substitutions, and focus less on rigid instructions that seem to suffocate players

Bring Back Kerrea Gilbert

He could have chosen many people with a CV, but he chose the two most pointless assistants on the planet.

Claudius

Just going through last season and remembered that Arteta didn’t even qualify for Europa via league. We had to get in last gasp via FA Cup. And we were trying similar this season for Champs League. This isn’t sustainable

AAStyle

Its clear that Arteta knows that he will remain for at least the next season. We are screwed. The club is committing seppuku.

Claudius

Seppuku is dying with honor. What we are dong is contemptible

Qwiss

Theres a thin line between self belief and arrogance. Arteta thinks he's right, that other coaches are wrong. The players are wrong. And probably now the fans are wrong. His lack of humility is a weakness that stops him from learning and growing as a coach.

awooga83

That's the thing Qwiss, even after the FA cup win there was that clip of him telling the players I told you I'm right you just have to believe me. I know it was in the heat of the moment but with what we've seen over this 18 months I feel there is more to that idea that he thinks he's infallible and anytime things aren't working it's everything else but him.

He just doesn't seem to be able to see his own faults and weakness and despite having done nothing of real note as a manager talks like he has this track record. Very much like mourinho at his worst when his defence would be look what I've done before so you can't really say anything but Arteta doesn't have that record to justify taking that stance.

Klaus

Qwiss! wrote:
Theres a thin line between self belief and arrogance. Arteta thinks he's right, that other coaches are wrong. The players are wrong. And probably now the fans are wrong. His lack of humility is a weakness that stops him from learning and growing as a coach.

Definitely, and you can also be right about the problem in broad strokes and still going about solving it the wrong way.

I just don't like people like Arteta in charge of others. I do think he has a strong character and beliefs that he tries to commit to, but I don't think he's cut out to manage large groups of individuals. This has shone through before when he has spoken about how he doesn't want certain players whose mentality is too soft. Team psychology is about more than just telling them "My way or the highway" and to suck it up. Motivation is about more than rewarding hard work. You can't manage a football team efficiently when your leadership is modelled on some asshole who's trying to raise productivity in a warehouse. I reckon anyone who has had a job like that recognises the traits I'm referring to.

There are university courses in sports psychology that will help, but you don't get a chance to take them when you only spend a few months on your coaching badges.

goon

Massive dosses of confirmation bias in this thread.

Again, virtually ever manager has similar levels of arrogance and self belief. Imagine saying Arteta is too arrogant but with the next breath saying I want Brendan 'I'm going to hang a portrait of myself in my living room' Rodgers to join. "Sterli, you know I know what I heard you say!"

Even Wenger, known as a soft touch, listen to him speak in the bad days towards the end. Massive levels of indignation at any criticism and an unwavering belief that he wasn't the problem, in fact he couldn't believe people couldn't recognise all the good he was doing.

The players look to largely be with Arteta too, I don't get any impression that they've had enough of his brand of management.

The ability to keep players enthusiastic, focused and confident is probably the hardest skill in football. Even the best managers who ARE successful get to a stage where they struggle. Arteta managed to do it for a couple of months but the moment a couple of games went against us they wavered again. This is his problem. I personally never thought it helped to constantly tell these guys that they're miles away from the likes of City or Liverpool or that we're miles away from where we want to be, or that we're missing half his ideal first XI. You can't keep going on like that and then be surprised that we get on the pitch and look defeated from min 1.

lorddulaarsenal

I can see us finishing 8th

Claudius

goon wrote:
Massive dosses of confirmation bias in this thread.

Again, virtually ever manager has similar levels of arrogance and self belief. Imagine saying Arteta is too arrogant but with the next breath saying I want Brendan 'I'm going to hang a portrait of myself in my living room' Rodgers to join. "Sterli, you know I know what I heard you say!"

Even Wenger, known as a soft touch, listen to him speak in the bad days towards the end. Massive levels of indignation at any criticism and an unwavering belief that he wasn't the problem, in fact he couldn't believe people couldn't recognise all the good he was doing.

The players look to largely be with Arteta too, I don't get any impression that they've had enough of his brand of management.

The ability to keep players enthusiastic, focused and confident is probably the hardest skill in football. Even the best managers who ARE successful get to a stage where they struggle. Arteta managed to do it for a couple of months but the moment a couple of games went against us they wavered again. This is his problem. I personally never thought it helped to constantly tell these guys that they're miles away from the likes of City or Liverpool or that we're miles away from where we want to be, or that we're missing half his ideal first XI. You can't keep going on like that and then be surprised that we get on the pitch and look defeated from min 1.

Agree with this take.
The confidence is great until you lose and you look like an ass. The media and Chelsea fans loved Mourinho when he called himself the special one. Now he just looks like an old tit

Klaus

I mean it's absolutely one of the reasons that Mourinho has never stayed more than three seasons anywhere too and everything has begun falling apart when he leaves. The difference is that his other skills are top class, or used to be.

goon

It all ties in, if your other skills are good enough it helps with performances on the pitch, which helps with the confidence and the buy in. It can be a virtuous or vicious cycle, with Arteta the fact that we constantly find ourselves in the latter is a good sign that something isn't right.

Claudius

Then there is

One of the first meetings Brendan Rodgers held at Leicester City involved the club’s cleaners. A corridor at the old training ground, Belvoir Drive, was partially blocked by a pile of boxes. Rodgers told the cleaners, “Your role is vital at this football club, it is you who look after the environment we work in. If you could find some way to move these boxes it would be incredible.”

The cleaners were delighted. They had long wanted to clear the corridor but were told that the boxes were important. “Do what you feel necessary,” Rodgers said. “If anyone complains, send them to me.” The cleaners felt 10ft tall.

Klaus

goon wrote:
It all ties in, if your other skills are good enough it helps with performances on the pitch, which helps with the confidence and the buy in. It can be a virtuous or vicious cycle, with Arteta the fact that we constantly find ourselves in the latter is a good sign that something isn't right.

It definitely does. I just don't think anyone is helped when someone stands there and tells them that they're wired wrong in the head and not good enough. When you tell people they should be accountable for what they do and don't hold yourself to the same standards they will loathe you. That's true whether you're José Mourinho or Louis van Gaal or Mikel Arteta. The only difference is when people decide they've had enough of it. They are less eager to rock the boat while the team is doing alright.

goon

Yeah absolutely. The only caveat I would add is that if you're having to hold yourself accountable regularly (by that I assume you mean adapt, change tact etc), you're probably going to lose the players that way too. Results are the only way to keep players onside I reckon.

awooga83

Plenty of managers deploy that confidence for sure but many of them can only get away with it by delivering on it. A mourinho can get some more time by pointing to an the places he's managed and brought success to say you may not like this attitude but it brings results. But even he has been dumped when he fails to deliver on that arrogance.

I also think it's not going to help most new managers to come in and project like they have nothing to learn and have it all figured out. Again if you instantly deliver people might buy it but if your team's are producing poor football and results people will think your totally detached from reality.

If the players are with Arteta then this is even more alarming because they are executing his instructions and what we see now it's the results.

flobaba

Exactly. And they are. They are executing his orders and instructions to a T. He did a great job with damage control and setting them up defensively when he got here initially. The moment he tried to instill attacking ideas was when we began to see this nonsense football consistently. And we all gave him a shot. But as Tuchel is showing, you do not need more than a few weeks to implement your vision if you’re a good coach. Even if we want to account for lower quality of players, in Arteta’s case it should only mean it takes you a bit more time to get your playing philosophy across. It has been a full season. I don’t know what else we want him to prove.

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