Has Arteta Truly Turned it Around?: Page 74 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Has Arteta Truly Turned it Around?

Clrnc

Yep, pretty spot on. It's just very obvious Arteta prefers conservative style over high risks in every aspect of game management, be it players selection or tactics.

I don't think Nketiah was ever overhyped though, Nelson definitely was since young. Nketiah always looked to have a ceiling to his game, it would have been great if he could turned out to be a decent PL striker but that looks like a stretch even now.

goon

jones wrote:
goon wrote:
When you're a young player with guys like Auba and Laca ahead of you, you need to grab any chances you do get, and sadly that hasn't been the case with Eddie. He got quite a few mins in the league early on in the season, including 3 starts. He's never really shown what he brings to the table in these games (beyond closing down the keeper).

Willock sort of falls into a similar category, he got a lot of time off the bench last year and some time this season and he's never really don't anything to hold that spot down.

Compare that with ESR, Saka or Martinelli, all 3 of whom look immediate at home when on the pitch.

Nelson is the really unlucky one, unlike the two above I reckon Arteta just doesn't like him or what he brings for some reason. He's basically like Pepe except without the necessary pedigree and perhaps talent to force his way into contention.

That's not how a manager who values youth works. You give young players more than just garbage minutes at 85+ min to convince you they're ready, that'll just ruin whatever confidence they might have. It's mostly up to chance if Saka fluffs a couple chances at the start of his career and Emery benches him he'd most likely never be who he is today either.

Willock and Nketiah have shown for Newcastle and the U21 as well as in Europe they're good players. Nketiah might be a bit limited but when both Laca and Auba look like shite you give him chances to impress. Willock is even more obvious he just needs experience to put it all together in a reasonable environment. Nelson was rated higher than all of them and he looks like a pub player completely playing within himself. I'm not as big a fan of his as others but it's painfully obvious he could play a lot better and it's beyond obvious he should be getting minutes ahead of Willian.

No manager running a big club with the stakes as high as they are going to give these guys too much playing time unless they prove their worth, especially when you have seasoned pros ahead of them, not even Wenger and he had unrivalled job security.

If you really want a manager to use youth you need a higher up to take it out of his hands a little, like we did with Emery when we sold Mkhi and Iwobi, rather than signing someone like Willian.

Clrnc

goon wrote:
If you really want a manager to use youth you need a higher up to take it out of his hands a little, like we did with Emery when we sold Mkhi and Iwobi, rather than signing someone like Willian.

Emery was just a coach.

Arteta requested for Willian personally.

goon

FEBravo wrote:
I think the Pepe/Nelson comparison is a good one. They're both high risk/high reward players, who need the freedom to fully let their creative talent out. it does come at the cost of higher turnovers etc., especially as they are adapting in the case of Pepe and learning in that of Nelson. And it's clear that Arteta prefers a lower-risk strategy, based on established patterns, and his micro-managing is obvious when you see him on the sidelines. What I don't understand is why he didn't go on loan where he could have shown what he was capable of in a different environment. If he can't hack it, then so be it.

Is Nelson high risk? He's pretty conservative and I remember seeing a stat that he had the highest ball retention percentage in the squad or something.

I can only imagine it's his game off the ball that Arteta (and Emery before him) doesn't like.

goon

Clrnc wrote:
goon wrote:
If you really want a manager to use youth you need a higher up to take it out of his hands a little, like we did with Emery when we sold Mkhi and Iwobi, rather than signing someone like Willian.

Emery was just a coach.

Arteta requested for Willian personally.

Pretty sure it was Edu who brought it to our attention that Willian could be available, before Arteta even joined apparently. That being said I'm sure Arteta did want him, but either way, my point is whether Arteta want's him or not shouldn't matter, if the club wants to priorotise youth and pave the way for guys like Nelson, then Arteta shouldn't be given the choice.

It's the same with Balogun, a lot of Arsenal fans seem to want to sign a striker despite hyping him up all season, but if you're serious about giving him a chance you slot him in right behind Auba and Martinelli.

FEBravo

goon wrote:
FEBravo wrote:
I think the Pepe/Nelson comparison is a good one. They're both high risk/high reward players, who need the freedom to fully let their creative talent out. it does come at the cost of higher turnovers etc., especially as they are adapting in the case of Pepe and learning in that of Nelson. And it's clear that Arteta prefers a lower-risk strategy, based on established patterns, and his micro-managing is obvious when you see him on the sidelines. What I don't understand is why he didn't go on loan where he could have shown what he was capable of in a different environment. If he can't hack it, then so be it.

Is Nelson high risk? He's pretty conservative and I remember seeing a stat that he had the highest ball retention percentage in the squad or something.

I can only imagine it's his game off the ball that Arteta (and Emery before him) doesn't like.

He's definitely playing with the proverbial handbrake on the few times he got on. Not really trying to take anyone on which I think he was doing much more before. He was extremely good at beating people 1v1 and skinning them on the inside. When we've seen him the few times he was very hesitant to do so. Could just be confidence but I think it's more he knows what was important was retaining possession etc. But I could easily be wrong

jones

goon wrote:
jones wrote:
That's not how a manager who values youth works. You give young players more than just garbage minutes at 85+ min to convince you they're ready, that'll just ruin whatever confidence they might have. It's mostly up to chance if Saka fluffs a couple chances at the start of his career and Emery benches him he'd most likely never be who he is today either.

Willock and Nketiah have shown for Newcastle and the U21 as well as in Europe they're good players. Nketiah might be a bit limited but when both Laca and Auba look like shite you give him chances to impress. Willock is even more obvious he just needs experience to put it all together in a reasonable environment. Nelson was rated higher than all of them and he looks like a pub player completely playing within himself. I'm not as big a fan of his as others but it's painfully obvious he could play a lot better and it's beyond obvious he should be getting minutes ahead of Willian.

No manager running a big club with the stakes as high as they are going to give these guys too much playing time unless they prove their worth, especially when you have seasoned pros ahead of them, not even Wenger and he had unrivalled job security.

We finished last season in 8th and this season probably around 11th we're a big club in name only. There are no high stakes either the guy in charge is as comfy as any other coach in the league. Even if he weren't do you really think Josh would sack him if he put more emphasis on youth and played the youngins into form instead of relying on Willian and Luiz.

goon

I don't think Josh cares about any of that really, he's not going to be ok with not finishing top four because at least Nelson got some mins. And while Arteta seems to have his trust for now, it won't endure if things don't change very quickly next season.

Qwiss

Sicario wrote:
1) AMN has played full back for almost 2 years before Arteta arrived and has been hit and miss at best. If he wasn’t so adamant on being a CM maybe he would still be here.
2) Luiz been our best CB this year. Saliba is 19 years old and came into the season hardly played in the previous 6 months. Had injury problems, had personal problems etc
3) Willock’s had plenty of opportunities in the league but has failed to grasp them (opposite of Saka). 99 percent of us in this forum said it was the right thing to send Willock out on loan
4) Agree with you re Willian over Nelson. The latter should have played more but again he is one who hasn’t impressed when given the chance (the opposite of ESR)
5) Saka hasnt played full back for over a year so not sure what you mean there
6) Laca has been our top 3 best player this season and Pepe’s had plenty of game time this season. Eddie has got plenty of playing time this season but you fail to mention him because he’s gone off the boil.

The bit about Arteta not giving youth a chance is a myth. However, just because they are young and could have potential they shouldn’t get preferable treatment. If you are good enough you are old enough (like Saka and ESR) and these youngsters have to earn their right.

AMN is better than the players ahead of him in 2 positions.
Holding is our best CB this year.
Willock got around 200 minutes of PL time for us this season. Thats not "plenty of opportunities". What Willian got over the same period was "plenty of opportunities".
"hasn't impressed when given the chance" What chance? The guy has 70 minutes of PL football all season.

However, just because they are young and could have potential they shouldn’t get preferable treatment.

That'd be fine if the opposite hadn't been true all season with older failing players getting preferential treatment.

Claudius

Some more detailed facts to help guide discussion.

[Twitter]

Qwiss

Claudius wrote:
I’m tired about having debates about Arsenal players. When you step on the field like Tierney, nobody questions whether you belong.

Yeah thats great except Artetas not filling the team with Tierneys every week. He's filling it with Willian, Elneny and Ceballos. 3 of Artetas favourites and most used league players. Thats who people want the Hale End players instead of.

Claudius

Qwiss! wrote:
Claudius wrote:
I’m tired about having debates about Arsenal players. When you step on the field like Tierney, nobody questions whether you belong.

Yeah thats great except Artetas not filling the team with Tierneys every week. He's filling it with Willian, Elneny and Ceballos. 3 of Artetas favourites and most used league players. Thats who people want the Hale End players instead of.

But that’s not an Arteta the coach issue. That’s a general management issue. We need better players. You guys saw the Champions League semis this week. Even the kid Foden plays on a different plane. We would struggle to get players on a team like City. Even Real, PSG and Chelsea. That is the problem. The fact that we are out here talking about Ceballos and AMN when Pep is sitting Jesus, Aguero and Sterling

Qwiss

Claudius wrote:
Qwiss! wrote:
Yeah thats great except Artetas not filling the team with Tierneys every week. He's filling it with Willian, Elneny and Ceballos. 3 of Artetas favourites and most used league players. Thats who people want the Hale End players instead of.

But that’s not an Arteta the coach issue. That’s a general management issue. We need better players. You guys saw the Champions League semis this week. Even the kid Foden plays on a different plane. We would struggle to get players on a team like City. Even Real, PSG and Chelsea. That is the problem. The fact that we are out here talking about Ceballos and AMN when Pep is sitting Jesus, Aguero and Sterling

Arteta is not the coach, he is the manager. All 3 of those players being at the club is his choice. He wanted Willian and then played him loads, he wanted another loan for Ceballos and played him loads, he chose to keep Elneny here even though he'd been loaned away from the club previously. And he picked them instead of the likes of Willock, Guendouzi and AMN, thats the issue.

And why are you talking about Champions League semi finalists? We aren't competing with them, sure if our kids were at City I could see the sense in not using them but we aren't City. We are in midtable battling for position with Leeds and Villa.

Klaus

Claudius wrote:
We would struggle to get players on a team like City. Even Real, PSG and Chelsea. That is the problem.

At the beginning of last season Chelsea had a transfer ban, a team full of academy kids, Lampard as their manager, they had just lost their best player to Real Madrid, and they still finished comfortably above us to qualify for Champions League. Tammy Abraham was their only striker for chrissakes. Now they're playing a Champions League final.

No one thought Lampard was a particularly good manager except for the chavs, and he was still levels above Arteta. He was above Arteta in the table when he got sacked too. The lesson here isn't that we can't compete. We're the only ones who keep falling behind every season because not only do we make bad decisions, we dig our heels in and stick with them too.

goon

@qs - And Wenger chose Flamini, Welbeck, Debuchy etc. over hale end products. Every manager or coach does the same and if that’s something you’re after from Arteta’s successor then good luck finding one. Anyway, I’m done with this particular debate.

goon

Klaus wrote:
Claudius wrote:
We would struggle to get players on a team like City. Even Real, PSG and Chelsea. That is the problem.

At the beginning of last season Chelsea had a transfer ban, a team full of academy kids, Lampard as their manager, they had just lost their best player to Real Madrid, and they still finished comfortably above us to qualify for Champions League. Tammy Abraham was their only striker for chrissakes. Now they're playing a Champions League final.

No one thought Lampard was a particularly good manager except for the chavs, and he was still levels above Arteta. He was above Arteta in the table when he got sacked too. The lesson here isn't that we can't compete. We're the only ones who keep falling behind every season because not only do we make bad decisions, we dig our heels in and stick with them too.

They still had arguably the best midfield lineup in the league though, which has been and still is a notorious weak spot for us.

That we’re still arguing about whether we should play Elneny, Ceballos, Douzi, Willock or AMN speaks volumes.

Claudius

Klaus wrote:
Claudius wrote:
We would struggle to get players on a team like City. Even Real, PSG and Chelsea. That is the problem.

At the beginning of last season Chelsea had a transfer ban, a team full of academy kids, Lampard as their manager, they had just lost their best player to Real Madrid, and they still finished comfortably above us to qualify for Champions League. Tammy Abraham was their only striker for chrissakes. Now they're playing a Champions League final.

No one thought Lampard was a particularly good manager except for the chavs, and he was still levels above Arteta. He was above Arteta in the table when he got sacked too. The lesson here isn't that we can't compete. We're the only ones who keep falling behind every season because not only do we make bad decisions, we dig our heels in and stick with them too.

When Lampard was fired, Chelsea were below Arsenal. We had a point more, having played a game extra. Lampard was a disaster.

Klaus

That just reinforces my point. We deserve to be exactly where we are.

Claudius

Lampard was an even weaker manager than Arteta given his abundance of riches.
But given how poorly both teams were performing, it stands out that the team that demands trophies made a decision to shake up things and the team we’re everything is comfortable did nothing. Marina and Roman have very different expectations from Stan and Josh, and I’m that permeates throughout each organisation’s culture

Qwiss

goon wrote:
@qs - And Wenger chose Flamini, Welbeck, Debuchy etc. over hale end products. Every manager or coach does the same and if that’s something you’re after from Arteta’s successor then good luck finding one. Anyway, I’m done with this particular debate.

Flamini came to Arsenal when he was 21 and Wenger turned him into a pretty good midfielder, I'd love a prime Flamini to partner Partey.

Our next manager absolutely must do better with young players. If we hang onto Arteta I worry he'll sell of our talented youth to bring in more Willian and Ceballos types.

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