Has Arteta Truly Turned it Around?: Page 47 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Has Arteta Truly Turned it Around?

Meatwad

can't be this negative and not get results. it's just a non-starter. you can only tolerate negativity when it leads to trophies.

Bring Back Kerrea Gilbert

Good post MD.

ohboy

GooneriC wrote:
ohboy!!! wrote:
Any manager we get is going to be a gamble.

Nagelsmann, or Ten Hag would be great, but both would be gambles here, make no mistake.

You're right , but given the choice would you rather gamble on those than Arteta next season?

If you could guarantee Nagelsmann, I would then roll the dice. Other than that, I would see what Arteta can do next season.

Klaus

goon wrote:
So we need a current top tier manager with PL experience. So basically you want Pep or Klopp?

Personally I think we missed a big chance with Pochettino in December. I'm sure he would have come too (contrary to what he has said publicly) after getting sacked by them.

There are others though. Plenty of people in Europe who play good, entertaining football without massive resources at their disposal. Appointing one of them a year ago might have been seen as risky, but now it's pretty much a nothing-to-lose scenario. We're not going to get worse than we currently are because that's almost impossible for a club with our quality and resources.

GooneriC

The only scenario where I see Arteta should stay is if we win Europa . Winning that and getting into the CL , that earns him another season

goon

If Arteta doesn't perform he'll be gone by the end of the calendar year, it's hardly a gamble. Going with the wrong man on the other hand probably commits us to another couple of years at the very least.

goon

Klaus wrote:
goon wrote:
So we need a current top tier manager with PL experience. So basically you want Pep or Klopp?

There are others though. Plenty of people in Europe who play good, entertaining football without massive resources at their disposal. Appointing one of them a year ago might have been seen as risky, but now it's pretty much a nothing-to-lose scenario. We're not going to get worse than we currently are because that's almost impossible for a club with our quality and resources.

It's a gamble in the sense that the project starts over again though. I could definitely see a handful of managers coming in, improving our football and getting us competing among the top 6 without massive overhaul, but competing for the title is considerably beyond that and personally I don't think you do that by playing roulette with the manager role. You need to hire someone who you think can take you all the way.

As far as style of football goes, I think people need to lower their expectations. Literally everyone in the league plays garbage football, even City are pretty machine like. I just don't think they style of the league allows for it.

AAStyle

I don't mind if Allegri comes and transforms us in the most boring team of the premier league if we return to where we belong, top4 club. Then we can start assessing how to take the next jump--aiming to win the league.

Klaus

goon wrote:
It's a gamble in the sense that the project starts over again though.

I think we need to stop hiring people who deal in those terms first and foremost. A team doesn't start over just because a new manager comes in. He has his philosophy and his preferred type of football, that's fine, but I think it's so absurd to expect anyone to be given years of leeway and hundreds of millions of investment just to produce some decent football. If you can't build on what's already there you're just not a good manager, and speaking from a personal point of view, this was the first warning light that went off for me regarding Arteta. Wenger didn't complain and went on to talk about how he had to swap everyone when he took over an Arsenal team with a total of two good pair of feet - all four of them belonging to different players - in the entire first team squad.

Looking specifically at the current situation at Arsenal, if you're a football coach and you think that you can't build something with players like Aubameyang, Leno, Partey, Saka, Smith-rowe, Tierney, Gabriel, Pepe, Martinelli and-so-forth then you shouldn't be in contention for a job. I'm all out of time and sympathy for that brand of manager. They're here to serve us, not the other way around. Arsenal does not exist to be their personal pet project.

awooga83

I think that's right Klaus, football projects don't really exist anymore work the money in the top game they are just not going anywhere. Pragmatism far more important. This yeah isn't the best team but I think they could be used to get top6 finish.

Then you work towards refining towards a top 4/championship winning level team. If every time you are hiring people who say have to get rid of everthing and start again I don't think they are managers for the 21st century.

goon

Klaus wrote:
goon wrote:
It's a gamble in the sense that the project starts over again though.

I think we need to stop hiring people who deal in those terms first and foremost. A team doesn't start over just because a new manager comes in. He has his philosophy and his preferred type of football, that's fine, but I think it's so absurd to expect anyone to be given years of leeway and hundreds of millions of investment just to produce some decent football. If you can't build on what's already there you're just not a good manager, and speaking from a personal point of view, this was the first warning light that went off for me regarding Arteta. Wenger didn't complain and went on to talk about how he had to swap everyone when he took over an Arsenal team with a total of two good pair of feet - all belonging to different players - in the entire first team squad.

Looking specifically at the current situation at Arsenal, if you're a football coach and you think that you can't build something with players like Aubameyang, Leno, Partey, Saka, Smith-rowe, Tierney, Gabriel, Pepe, Martinelli and-so-forth then you shouldn't be in contention for a job. I'm all out of time and sympathy for that brand of manager.

I just think it's the reality though. You look around at the very best managers and they all have very specific wants and needs when it comes to players the players at their disposal. Klopp changed 90% of the Liverpool first 14 within 24 months. Managers who are adaptable are normally quite good at getting their teams up a few places and playing some decent football, Wenger is a great example, but the lack of clarity always leads to a lower ceiling imo. No one is saying they'd need to start from scratch, but changing just 3-4 first 11-15 players takes a couple of summers at a club like ours and by then most will have the pitch forks out.

The only way to counteract it is to either have a genuinely top class XI or hire coaches who's philosophy fits with the players at the club, but just just narrows the shortlist significantly.

Klaus

goon wrote:
I just think it's the reality though. You look around at the very best managers and they all have very specific wants and needs when it comes to players the players at their disposal. Klopp changed 90% of the Liverpool first 14 within 24 months.

I think that's just normal player movement though, maybe a little accelerated because they had an extraordinary amount of shit in their squad; it wasn't even half as good as ours is at the moment. We only have 7 players left now who were part of the first team squad in the summer of 2018 when Wenger was replaced though, and that's only 2,5 years ago.

Claudius

I think in the last few weeks Arteta has shown that he can coach good, attacking football. We’ve seen the attacking displays and underlying metrics to prove it. But he complicates and creates noise where this team needs stability and simplicity. That’s how you build consistency.

As you’ve pointed out, the ingredients are in place. We have a few good players that we can build around. There are a lot of square pegs who need go this summer but the ingredients we have should be performing better than 10th and in fits and starts by now.

I’m just trying to imagine myself as one of the players. Today as Auba you’re 9. Then you’re back to 11. As Leno all your defenders bar Tierney are constantly changing in front of you and you’re supposed to develop a relationship for build up play with them, etc, etc. It’s too complex.

As a club, Edu needs to advise him to simplify. And we also need to be quite firm - get some consistency in the League and get to the Europa League final. Else..

jones

Coombs wrote:
jones wrote:
Emery 78 games, 43 wins 16 draws 19 losses
Arteta 74 games 38 wins 15 draws 21 losses

Yep. The question of management becomes less relevant the more data we get. The team is a mess and we have tumultuous season after tumultuous season. The only consistency is the lack of it, and it's sinking the club.

Nonsense. The team is a mess because the man in charge doesn't know what the fuck he's doing. You need to distance yourself from the team and look at other clubs and leagues, clubs everywhere with shit managers are underperforming and clubs with great coaches do better than expected. Tuchel came into an underperforming Chelsea and just had his first loss after fifteen games. Kovac went to Monaco and got them from midtable to fighting PSG for the title. I could list dozens of examples just start looking elsewhere, Arsenal are far from "sinking" we have loads of cash and talents we just made a poor call on who to give the job to lead.

Claudius

Klaus wrote:
goon wrote:
I just think it's the reality though. You look around at the very best managers and they all have very specific wants and needs when it comes to players the players at their disposal. Klopp changed 90% of the Liverpool first 14 within 24 months.

I think that's just normal player movement though, maybe a little accelerated because they had an extraordinary amount of shit in their squad; it wasn't even half as good as ours is at the moment. We only have 7 players left now who were part of the first team squad in the summer of 2018 when Wenger was replaced though, and that's only 2,5 years ago.

No. It wasn’t normal player movement. It was Klopp building a very specific squad for his brand of football. Just where exactly was Coutinho going to play in this Liverpool team of the last two seasons? Klopp needed athletes who could run and press all season long, and went about buying them. We also need to be very deliberate in our buying against the manager’s style to ensure we have the right synergies.

Klaus

I don't think that's right. He didn't want to sell Coutinho at all and fought hard to keep him. He tried to convince him that he would just be one of many bit-part players at Barca but if he stayed he would be a Liverpool legend. The player wanted to go though and in the end Barca came in with the dumbest offer in the history of football which made it very easy.

Klaus

The only noteworthy takeaway from that transfer saga is that Klopp adapted a different way of playing without him, which is no more than you'd expect from a manager on that level. No doubt having obscene amounts of cash available helped him to get guys like van Dijk, Alisson and Fabinho though.

goon

Always felt like he was adapting to Coutinho though. Him leaving just made it easier to switch to something that didn't have to accommodate a player that he had to accommodate.

Klaus wrote:
goon wrote:
I just think it's the reality though. You look around at the very best managers and they all have very specific wants and needs when it comes to players the players at their disposal. Klopp changed 90% of the Liverpool first 14 within 24 months.

I think that's just normal player movement though, maybe a little accelerated because they had an extraordinary amount of shit in their squad; it wasn't even half as good as ours is at the moment. We only have 7 players left now who were part of the first team squad in the summer of 2018 when Wenger was replaced though, and that's only 2,5 years ago.

It's driven by necessity imo, that kind of turnover needs to be quick because you won't (nor should you) get 5 years to build your team. Since that initial period Liverpool's squad has been stable, as has City's. Once teams get to where they want they're normally quite stable. It's what we have to aim for imo, and to be fair I think we're close.

Klaus

Definitely, I don't disagree with any of that.

Claudius

goon wrote:
Always felt like he was adapting to Coutinho though. Him leaving just made it easier to switch to something that didn't have to accommodate a player that he had to accommodate.

Klaus wrote:
I think that's just normal player movement though, maybe a little accelerated because they had an extraordinary amount of shit in their squad; it wasn't even half as good as ours is at the moment. We only have 7 players left now who were part of the first team squad in the summer of 2018 when Wenger was replaced though, and that's only 2,5 years ago.

It's driven by necessity imo, that kind of turnover needs to be quick because you won't (nor should you) get 5 years to build your team. Since that initial period Liverpool's squad has been stable, as has City's. Once teams get to where they want they're normally quite stable. It's what we have to aim for imo, and to be fair I think we're close.

Yup. People sometimes have this mistaken idea that you need forever to build a team. If you have a clear blueprint, you can be done in 2 years. Our problem historically has been a lack of clarity and execution. A manager’s average tenure is too short for team building to take forever.

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