Has Arteta Truly Turned it Around?: Page 236 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Has Arteta Truly Turned it Around?

Doc

jones wrote:
Doc wrote:
No im not. Top 4 is a good achievement for this team even if we were 4th last season.

Yes you are. You aren't talking about your own views but the general consensus, and many here thought the squad was good enough for top 4 but didn't expect it because of the manager. Considering it "the bare minimum" now is also taking into account how our competition is bottling it.

Maybe didn't phrase it well... I still think it is a good achievement regardless of the manager from the position Emery left us to get top 4 in second full season.. Think most people would have said that if you asked them when we first signed Arteta.. 1st half of last season was obviously a disaster.

RE - "Bare minimum" - Things change quickly in football.. Now we are in a position where we would be throwing away top for, before the break we had 'blown it'.. Opinion change after every good/bad run that's why I prefer to take a longer term view approach.

KurtEisner

I didn't expect us to finish 4th before the season, but I did believe the squad was good enough to challenge for it and that should absolutely be the bare minimum. But as the season progressed, you could see that United are a horribly dysfunctional side even with Ronaldo, Varane and Sancho, and expectations changed, because the competition turned out to be worse than expected. It's similar to the Leicester season, no one expected us to win the league at the beginning of it, yet everyone was disappointed when we didn't. I don't think we should judge this season's performance based on predictions before it even started, as it stands we're in the best position to get 4th and it would be disappointing if we didn't get there.

jones

goon wrote:
I'm curious which of United, City, Chelsea and Liverpool people expected this squad to finish ahead of? I personally didn't rate United's business that much but plenty on here (and elsewhere) were talking about them being a title challengers after finishing second and adding Ronaldo, Sancho and Varane.

Sancho is 21 coming off a 100m transfer, not surprising if he'd struggle with expectations early on. Ronaldo is 36 and a massive dickhead, Varane is burned out and hasn't looked good for about three years already. Chelsea finished just six points ahead of us last season, only reason they're considered much better than us is because of how massively they have improved under Tuchel, the likes of Azpilicueta Alonso Werner even Kepa still get loads of playing time.

City are the only ones truly clear, Liverpool are definitely better than us too but they're fragile as seen last season and very dependent on a couple of key players a long term injury to Salah and they'd be in the mix with the rest of us. With a good manager even last season's squad could compete for a CL spot this season, been saying as much since last year.

goon

Yeah to be clear I thought we could and should compete too and I think I was the only one to actually predict it. If nothing else there's always usually someone who under performs that will leave an opening.

It's the expectation that that this squad should get top four that I was questioning, certainly at the start of the season. I think if you look at it now it's fair to revise that, even though I don't think we're quite as clear cut favourites as some are portraying.

QuincyAbeyie

I don't agree that you can think of it that way either. Like I said, it's also about money and time. I would've rather have Saliba here than White and bought a midfielder this summer like I've said before, and if we didn't I'd rather have Guendouzi here. Arteta disagrees, which is fair enough, but that also means that my expectations of what he should be able to do are the same as if he used the funds better in terms of squad balance (from my point of view). You can't spend wrong to lower the expectations.

Rakim

So you think having Saliba over White or Guendouzi in the squad would significantly improve our chances this season? Or expectations of the fans?

Burnwinter

Anyone claiming they were confident we should, would get top four at the outset of this season was just floating rhetoric.

We were a team that finished eighth last time round with a few untested signings, coming up against at least three apparently nailed on incumbents for the Champions League and plenty of organised rivals.

I remember these discussions at the time. Those claims were about setting up a framework under which Arteta was worthless and the summer business had been wasteful.

It was ironic because they ended up with fourth both the maximum possible and the minimum acceptable outcome, but to be clear, together with the caveat that even if we did get there it still wouldn't be good enough. Tough gig.

Start of the season or now, fourth was always a difficult result to aim at this season. Hope we can somehow get there, no one will mistake the cause for celebration if we do.

Burnwinter

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
Arteta disagrees, which is fair enough, but that also means that my expectations of what he should be able to do are the same as if he used the funds better in terms of squad balance (from my point of view). You can't spend wrong to lower the expectations.

Seems legit, but you also have to give credit for the signings you wouldn't have made: so don't forget Tomiyasu, Ramsdale and Tavares.

QuincyAbeyie

Rakim wrote:
So you think having Saliba over White or Guendouzi in the squad would significantly improve our chances this season? Or expectations of the fans?

No.

Either sign a midfielder instead of White, or sign White and keep Guendouzi if a good midfielder literally wasn't available in the summer no matter the funds.

Saliba over White and no midfielder is what your question seems to be about.

QuincyAbeyie

Burnwinter wrote:
Quincy Abeyie wrote:
Arteta disagrees, which is fair enough, but that also means that my expectations of what he should be able to do are the same as if he used the funds better in terms of squad balance (from my point of view). You can't spend wrong to lower the expectations.

Seems legit, but you also have to give credit for the signings you wouldn't have made: so don't forget Tomiyasu, Ramsdale and Tavares.

I didn't mention a particular midfielder we should've signed, so in that case you could've called any hypothetical midfield signing "signing I wouldn't have made" as well. But we all wanted a new RB and a backup LB (not that I'm convinced of Tavares, very much a wildcard at this point). Ramsdale has been a very pleasant surprise.

The two criticisms of the summer window was mainly Ramsdale and the lack of a midfielder. The striker issue has come later, so that's more of a January thing.

jones

Burnwinter wrote:
I remember these discussions at the time. Those claims were about setting up a framework under which Arteta was worthless and the summer business had been wasteful.

Nobody needs to set up a framework under which Arteta is worthless he's done that himself.

Not sure where the confusion is coming from, the people unhappy with Arteta (or at least some of them) have been saying that he's been underperforming since last year and that with a better manager 4th was realistic even then. We're now seeing that we're performing a bit better than the disastrous level we've seen for most of last season, that our rivals are shitting the bed and that 4th is within reach.

It was ironic because they ended up with fourth both the maximum possible and the minimum acceptable outcome, but to be clear, together with the caveat that even if we did get there it still wouldn't be good enough. Tough gig.

Yes it still isn't good enough because after 26 months in the job nobody can tell what Arteta is good at. He's falling out with everyone, he's extremely rigid and we look like shit trying to attack despite having loads of talent available. In an ideal world he gets the boot and someone deserving of a chance gets the job, since we don't live in one we cope by saying what should be considered the minimum ie not throwing CL footy away after having maximum liberty to buy and discard at will.

Burnwinter

We're two points shy of Chelsea if we win our games in hand. We've got the rest of the season to see what happens but for the moment, we're travelling just as well as rival sides coached by guys you admire.

No one will be able to argue Arteta deserves to be sacked on league position alone if we get fourth. The existing arguments about style, tactics, man management, recruitment will therefore deepen further as if that does happen, we're also facing at least another preseason up to crisis under his leadership.

If we get the Prize™ every normal fan will celebrate it and I'd hazard the Arteta-outs will as well.

Burnwinter

Also "our rivals are shitting the bed" (despite having "good" managers) is a rather obvious double standard ... I just see them winning some and losing some, myself.

The clubs that matter (United, Spurs) are still dangerous and not in a tailspin, and there's plenty of season left. Both had managerial changes we were told would revolutionise their fortunes ... perhaps they need more time.

And this is exactly why getting fourth would be a creditable achievement, right?

jones

United and Spurs have managers who have been in a job for a couple months, half a transfer window behind them and no pre-season. Not exactly the same as being in the job for more than two years is it?

Burnwinter wrote:
And this is exactly why getting fourth would be a creditable achievement, right?

Creditable to whom?

I thought the football on display in Arteta's first half season was horrendous but that was just the first six months so it wouldn't be fair to judge him then. However the football got even worse the year after, because of his actions in the transfer market, because of his man management and because of his clear lack of ability or experience in how to coach attacking football. We were reliant on Auba first, then looked dreadful until ESR came into the fold, then again until Martinelli came in. We have some of the most exciting attacking talents in Europe and we're still at 36 goals after 23 games.

It's virtually impossible for Arteta to win some of us over because he has already failed by getting us to 8th last season and no European football for the first time in 25 years, despite having a squad that was good enough to get there. He shouldn't be in the job right now, so for him to receive extra credit he'd have to do something which is above what can reasonably be expected from this squad.

Clrnc

Burnwinter wrote:
Also "our rivals are shitting the bed" (despite having "good" managers) is a rather obvious double standard ... I just see them winning some and losing some, myself.

The clubs that matter (United, Spurs) are still dangerous and not in a tailspin, and there's plenty of season left. Both had managerial changes we were told would revolutionise their fortunes ... perhaps they need more time.

And this is exactly why getting fourth would be a creditable achievement, right?

They are definitely shitting the bed. No arguments. If they continue in this form they won't even get to the normal points that typically claim top 5 let alone top 4.

goon

I don't think that's true, United are on course for 67 which is in line with the last couple of seasons for 4th and Spurs are on coarse for 64 and that's after recently losing 3 games on the bounce. Wouldn't take much of a correction in terms of form to push that up further.

KurtEisner

Burnwinter wrote:
Also "our rivals are shitting the bed" (despite having "good" managers) is a rather obvious double standard ... I just see them winning some and losing some, myself.

The clubs that matter (United, Spurs) are still dangerous and not in a tailspin, and there's plenty of season left. Both had managerial changes we were told would revolutionise their fortunes ... perhaps they need more time.

And this is exactly why getting fourth would be a creditable achievement, right?

Both United and Spurs fired their manager already, I think it's fair to say they've had pretty shit seasons so far. Especially United, they finished second last year, invested a lot of money, and 4th is out of their hands at this point, at least technically. Their most talented young player also turned out to be utter scum and is most likely headed for jail. If we hadn't fucked up the start of the season so badly, we'd be out of their sight by now. Same with Spurs, who we were all laughing at just a week ago. So while I do think it's praiseworthy that we are where we are in the table right now, it's not like we did it with our two biggest rivals for Top 4 firing on all cylinders, which is why some of us think it's crucial to get Top 4 this year, as they most likely won't have such a tumultous season next year.

AAStyle

goon wrote:
I'm curious which of United, City, Chelsea and Liverpool people expected this squad to finish ahead of? I personally didn't rate United's business that much but plenty on here (and elsewhere) were talking about them being a title challengers after finishing second and adding Ronaldo, Sancho and Varane.

This is a question we could have made during the years that Wenger had guys like Chamakh, Silvestre and Squillaci. Nobody made that question, we were a big team and we had a top tier manager

AAStyle

Burnwinter wrote:
Quincy Abeyie wrote:
Arteta disagrees, which is fair enough, but that also means that my expectations of what he should be able to do are the same as if he used the funds better in terms of squad balance (from my point of view). You can't spend wrong to lower the expectations.

Seems legit, but you also have to give credit for the signings you wouldn't have made: so don't forget Tomiyasu, Ramsdale and Tavares.

That is a ingenious argument, Burnsy, how about comparing with the signings that a top tier manager could have made?

QuincyAbeyie

Don't necessarily think a top tier manager makes good signings or is responsible for making good signings, that's often the job of someone else. I don't have an issue with the players we signed in their respective positions, it's more about what positions we chose to prioritize.

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