Has Arteta Truly Turned it Around?: Page 206 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Has Arteta Truly Turned it Around?

Ricky1985

It's definitely possible we get slapped.

We have had a good run of games, just as we did going into the Liverpool game and they put us well into our place in the end, so we should not get carried away. That said, we have definitely looked a level up in the games leading into City than in the games leading up to Liverpool.

The problem is City play the same positional game we've been slowly getting more and more proficient at way, way better than we do, obviously. Playing them at their own game could be... bad.

That said, I think we'll give them a good game because I think the team has progressed. The partnerships have formed and strengthened and we do a much better job of moving teams around in the build-up and utilising our speed once gaps open up, as well as pressurising teams into mistakes.

I'd be more confident if Arteta was on the touchline, but will be disappointed if it's not at least a close, hard fought game.

goon

flobaba wrote:
I hope I’m wrong but I fully expect us to get a firm reality check vs City yet again.

I feel like this sort of mentality (in the players rather than yourself) is a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy though. It's a bit like doing a bench-press at the gym with someone spotting you vs when you're alone, even being aware of the phenomenon doesn't do much to help.

I always thought the biggest thing about the Klopp sides, especially with Dortmund, was the belief they played with. They relished playing against the big sides even if it didn't always pan out. We need to get into that mindset and lose the dread.

It's why I always thought Arteta repeatedly talking about how many levels above us they are was never a good idea.

Ricky1985

You have to know your team and where you're at.

I'm sure when Klopp was building his Dortmund team, he was wary of being too ebulient as well. I recall him being a little like Arteta in the early days with Liverpool, when they were still a bit shit. When the time's right I'm sure Arteta will come out swinging in the build-up to every big game.

flobaba

Exactly. “Sabi yourself no be curse” is how we put it in Naija street language. Basically - “know yourself”.

Now this is not to say we can’t win, or can’t put in the maximum effort and hope for the best, but I am yet to see us put together a completely focused game of football from start to finish, both attacking and defending, while playing at the levels of intensity that would be needed to get a “deserved” result against City - we can’t match them football for football, so we have to defeat them tactically, or with superior effort and some luck. And remember this is Mr “control” ball we are talking about. We simply aren’t going to have the luxury of keeping possession when we want to, and having multiple opportunities and space and time to play our desired style against them. They are heavy favorites for a reason despite our improved form (albeit mostly against the scum of the league).

goon

All that comes with belief in my opinion. The intensity, the focus, the ambition. If you're going into the game thinking you're fucked, I reckon it becomes that much more likely that you won't be able to deal with a bread and butter loopy cross into the box towards the shortest player on the pitch. Similarly, you're going to end up playing the safe pass to keep possession rather than the one you'd normally make.

flobaba

Hey I don’t disagree - it’s the coach’s responsibility to give the players the belief that they can go toe to toe with higher level competition. That is what elite coaches do. It’s why Simeone is a god at Atletico. And Klopp was at Dortmund and is at Liverpool. They tell the players that their tactics can work if they stick to it and implement it, and the players go, and implement and find out that it does work! And then it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy like you say, in the positive sense this time. Arteta talked a whole bunch earlier about how the games against City etc were good tests and then we’ll go out there and concede 3 to 4 goals with little to no fight. That takes a toll on you mentally as a player. And then it becomes harder and harder to put out the required focus and effort levels. The results have to come quickly to engender the right belief.

Gazza M

if we're on the right track as is being purported, we shouldn't be getting embarrassed by city at home, and the chasm that's existed between them and us in the last few years should show signs of being bridged. and it's not just that players need more belief in an abstract sense, it's belief in the system the coach has asked them to play. if the players repeatedly bottle the execution of the game plan against stronger sides, it's a sign that the coaching isn't too crash hot. and we've gotten to the point where we can't just blame it on difference in player quality. city are better on that front, but not to the extent that they get to steamroll us at our place

Coombs

It's belief in themselves and each other that matters, not tactics or the system. That's what's abstract. It's a contributing factor but it is not the main factor in any sport.

Anzac

Now he has COVID again it will be interesting to see how the team goes v MC without him being on the side-line.

Gazza M

Coombs wrote:
It's belief in themselves and each other that matters, not tactics or the system. That's what's abstract. It's a contributing factor but it is not the main factor in any sport.

those two things are linked together. belief in the guy next to you to execute the game plan isn't abstract, nor is it a minor factor.

Anzac

Gazza M wrote:
Coombs wrote:
It's belief in themselves and each other that matters, not tactics or the system. That's what's abstract. It's a contributing factor but it is not the main factor in any sport.

those two things are linked together. belief in the guy next to you to execute the game plan isn't abstract, nor is it a minor factor.

It was the corner stone for AW's intuitive playing style.

Coombs

Gazza M wrote:
Coombs wrote:
It's belief in themselves and each other that matters, not tactics or the system. That's what's abstract. It's a contributing factor but it is not the main factor in any sport.

those two things are linked together. belief in the guy next to you to execute the game plan isn't abstract, nor is it a minor factor.

Of course it's abstract. All belief is. Belief in systems even more so. If the prep is good, it's what you do when you're out of prep that makes the difference at the top level. If the prep is bad, then sure, you're basically done before you begin. Either way, I personally don't think sporting competition is primarily about abstract intellectual thinking, i.e. systems and tactics. Commitment, confidence, focus, morale, understanding, intensity, fitness, physicality, skill - these are all more important than systems or tactics in the end. Trends that privilege the latter are reductionist, designed to take something inherently ineffable (so-called "soft factors") and quantify it for ease of consumption. On the ground, in the moment, it's all just numerical noise, graphs, and charts. Much more suited to reflection, than action. It's important, it provides a richer information set from which to act on next, and it's probably more important than I'm making out, but it definitely isn't as crucial as our data-obsessed culture seems to think.

Anyway, your point is well taken. I just get irked by all the systems talk.

Big Willie

Stuivenberg in?

Doc

Give it a rest.

Trust the process.

Big Willie

Let's not get our knickers in a twist.

Burnwinter

First half was so good today, fucking travesty in the second half doesn't even matter.

Overall we looked strong against the best side around, we had them beaten.

Over two weeks before we play again in the league and that's the NLD. We need to pull out this level of football again then, and get a result.

Qwiss

His faith in Xhaka is holding us back.

Clrnc

Don't care who's in charge shouting on the touchline but fact is we played well so credit to all of them

FEBravo

At halftime I thought I’d post here at full time that although I still dislike Arteta, real progress was now being shown in terms of performance and results. But seeing now how he responds to Xhakas antics will be quite telling.

goon

Some really good things have transpired since the Everton game that definitely has us going on an upward trajectory. We look well drilled, we're creating chances and we're showing a lot more aggression in both big and small games. On top of that we have a really young squad that has no real reason not to improve.

The key will be to keep it going in the right direction. A Jan midfield signing would really help.

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