Has Arteta Truly Turned it Around?: Page 18 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Has Arteta Truly Turned it Around?

speedy

Anzac wrote:
@lorddulaarsenal wrote:
Arteta has talent. He’s made changes and it’s not easy gutting the club of all the garbo players we had and still have. What he must do in the summer is go for it. No leaving us short in areas and have half a team like Wenger always seemed to have post Vieira

Unfortunately this takes more finances than we have available post-COVID (even before we talk about top4 quality), and nothing suggests that KSE are going to dip into their own pocket to take advantage of a buyer's market. Consequently we'll be lucky if we're balanced, let alone fit for purpose or even top4 quality.

Its taken City well over a billion of outside investment, long term planning and one of the very best managers in the world to get to what we saw yesterday. Be hard to fix that in a transfer window.

Clrnc

Yeah but we are not asking Arsenal to match City or Liverpool, Chelsea or even United.

At least be competitive enough to not be behind Leicester, West Ham, Aston Villa, Everton, Tottenham even with more games played than them

Claudius

So I think we have the 6-7th best team in the league. I.e., City, United, Liverpool, Chelsea, Leicester all have better teams, and we are probably around where Spurs is. Spurs are like us - they have talent but lots of configuration issues. I placed Leicester ahead of us because they have a very beautifully recruited squad, one where each piece fits perfectly like a jigsaw puzzle.

So we are running 10th and around ₁₀ points off the 38 game pace of 6-7th, where we should be finishing with this team. I think that's a reasonable assessment. That's the current Arteta deficit that he needs to claw back to have had a breakeven season with this group.

Claudius

On identity, I shared some graphs in the tactics column that describe what Arteta is trying to do. He is trying to take us from a long possession, limited press team to a long possession, intense press team.

He just appears to be having trouble with chance creation. A lot of our players have good progression stats. Xhaka and Ceballos are amongst the best in pass progressions into the final third. Partey is amongst the best in carries. It's what happens after. Our pass maps show that a lot of those progressive passes are going to the wide areas. We are missing zone 14 - and had half as many touches there as City yesterday despite only a 45/55 possession deficit. We need more verticality. That will come from having players who are braver in central midfield, and more movement upfield. ESR and Partey both help.

The Arteta identity question is tightly tied to the players we have. The football he wants to play cannot be played by many of the players we have in vital areas of ball progression.

Klaus

He's gonna have to perform with the players he has, otherwise what's the point of him? The club is not here to make him look good; it's supposed to be the other way around. There isn't a manager in Europe except maybe Pep who ever gets exactly what they want. If Arteta can't even achieve the most basic targets without literal years of squad building and a half billion investment then he's a massive failure.

Ricky1985

No matter what you do as a coach you're going end up an average team, pretty crap even, with Mustafi, old man Luiz, Holding Kolasinac, Bellerin, Cedric, Xhaka, Ceballos, Elneny, Nketiah, Lacazette, and others, playing regularly, as has been the case for the majority of Arteta's time here.

Klaus

He also has Leno, Aubameyang, Saka, Tierney, Gabriel, Partey, Martinelli, Smith-Rowe, etc. Let's not pretend the issue is Eddie who has played ten minutes in the last two months. Guys like Luiz, Elneny and Willian have played so much because he keeps picking them too.

AAStyle

A top tier manager would have taken charge of the garbage better than our coach.
And yes, a manager has to work with what he has, and our team has more than enough to perform better than Aston Villa, Leicester or West Ham.

speedy

Klaus wrote:
He also has Leno, Aubameyang, Saka, Tierney, Gabriel, Partey, Martinelli, Smith-Rowe, etc. Let's not pretend the issue is Eddie who has played ten minutes in the last two months. Guys like Luiz, Elneny and Willian have played so much because he keeps picking them too.

Auba has been awful. Not even trying most of the season. I dont expect great preformances but I do expect 100% effort for 350K per week.
Partey has been out.
Gabriel is really raw hes got talent but hes also got a lot to learn. He made some serious errors against benfica that just werent punished.
Martinelli has been injured until now, when we didn play him it was open season for united down our left. Willian came on and got us a point by shoring up that side. Willian offers nothing going forwards but his experiance offered the LB cover and thats the kind of poverty of squad debth we have.
Aretea has done wonders with Smith-Rowe but he's a kid with a handful of premiership appearences same with Martinelli.

How many managers have said playing kids costs you points? We'll we're the exception to that because the first team was so freaking bad. These kids all have tons to learn despite their talent were likely to have some shit preformances intigrating them no matter whos in charge.

Ricky1985

Klaus wrote:
He also has Leno, Aubameyang, Saka, Tierney, Gabriel, Partey, Martinelli, Smith-Rowe, etc. Let's not pretend the issue is Eddie who has played ten minutes in the last two months. Guys like Luiz, Elneny and Willian have played so much because he keeps picking them too.

He's not had Tierney, Partey, Martinelli and Smith Rowe for the large parts of that time. Gabriel too.

And anyway, that's besides the point. If you're forced into having to play half a team of really average players then your not going to be a very good team no matter what you do. And Arteta has had no choice every single time he picks an XI but to play an average centreback, and for the most part, two average centrebacks. For the vast majority he has had no option but to pick between 4 or 5 average centre midfielders. Kolasinac, Maitland-Niles and Cedric have probably played more at left back than Tierney. Bellerin has been the only real option at right back because Maitalnd-Niles is a "centre midfielder".

The only reason I mention Nketiah is because he was first choice for a while, which says a lot about just how rubbish Lacazette is/has been.

speedy

Ricky1985 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
He also has Leno, Aubameyang, Saka, Tierney, Gabriel, Partey, Martinelli, Smith-Rowe, etc. Let's not pretend the issue is Eddie who has played ten minutes in the last two months. Guys like Luiz, Elneny and Willian have played so much because he keeps picking them too.

He's not had Tierney, Partey, Martinelli and Smith Rowe for the large parts of that time. Gabriel too.

And anyway, that's besides the point. If you're forced into having to play half a team of really average players then your not going to be a very good team no matter what you do. And Arteta has had no choice every single time he picks an XI but to play an average centreback, and for the most part, two average centrebacks. For the vast majority he has had no option but to pick between 4 or 5 average centre midfielders. Kolasinac, Maitland-Niles and Cedric have probably played more at left back than Tierney. Bellerin has been the only real option at right back because Maitalnd-Niles is a "centre midfielder".

The only reason I mention Nketiah is because he was first choice for a while, which says a lot about just how rubbish Lacazette is/has been.

Exactly, Wenger was the absolute king of polishing turds. Even he couldn't cobble up a team with these guys.
Emery even with his vast experaince couldn't get the dressing room together, " they ask for more than they give" he had to let them pick their own captain so they wouldn't turn on him. Emery mention the dressing room "needed xhaka". even though he can be fustrating he also cares about winning.

This team arteta got had a ton of issues at every level. From corruption over signings which Klaus mentioned a lot. To players who have no intrest in playing. A dressing room that is deeply divided. And a horrid squad. How can anyone expect him to reasonably correct all these these issues in a year?

And thats before you get into things like the defenders having no idea what theyre doing the midfield providing no cover and 3 fowards that each make everone around them look worse. The only saving grace he got was peak auba whos already hit his high water mark.

AAStyle

Wenger would have died before making Arsenal wander around 10th like a EPL small club. Emery is not a top-tier manager, his place is something like Valencia or Sevilla at best.

GooneriC

If you have all those issues you do not sign a rookie manager to tackle them. A top tier manager takes time and earns that right but Areta? We made another mistake after Emery , just acknowledge it and move on.

Kel Varnsen

naz wrote:
mdgoonah41 wrote:
pretty much where im at

100000% exactly how I feel. Some call it strategic or tactical or rebuilding or whatever. I'll call it ponderous, safe, annoying and mind blowing boring.

It was quite clear against City. When we lost the ball in the final third of the pitch we ran back and formed two defensive lines 15 yards into our own half, instead of pressing immediately and perhaps winning the ball back in a good position. This is of course risky against a quality side like City, but that's the point. It's risk management. Arteta wants to play it safe above all else, and it's boring as fuck.

speedy

AAStyle- wrote:
Wenger would have died before making Arsenal wander around 10th like a EPL small club. Emery is not a top-tier manager, his place is something like Valencia or Sevilla at best.

So, a top 4 side that's better than us in european competitions?

speedy

GooneriC wrote:
If you have all those issues you do not sign a rookie manager to tackle them. A top tier manager takes time and earns that right but Areta? We made another mistake after Emery , just acknowledge it and move on.

that logic is flawed though we had 2 very experianced managers in wenger and emery who couldn't tackle the issues monetioned. If experiance was the vital part of the cure we woudn't have been in the mess.

Clrnc

AAStyle- wrote:
Wenger would have died before making Arsenal wander around 10th like a EPL small club. Emery is not a top-tier manager, his place is something like Valencia or Sevilla at best.

Claudius

Ricky1985 wrote:
Klaus wrote:
He also has Leno, Aubameyang, Saka, Tierney, Gabriel, Partey, Martinelli, Smith-Rowe, etc. Let's not pretend the issue is Eddie who has played ten minutes in the last two months. Guys like Luiz, Elneny and Willian have played so much because he keeps picking them too.

He's not had Tierney, Partey, Martinelli and Smith Rowe for the large parts of that time. Gabriel too.

And anyway, that's besides the point. If you're forced into having to play half a team of really average players then your not going to be a very good team no matter what you do. And Arteta has had no choice every single time he picks an XI but to play an average centreback, and for the most part, two average centrebacks. For the vast majority he has had no option but to pick between 4 or 5 average centre midfielders. Kolasinac, Maitland-Niles and Cedric have probably played more at left back than Tierney. Bellerin has been the only real option at right back because Maitalnd-Niles is a "centre midfielder".

The only reason I mention Nketiah is because he was first choice for a while, which says a lot about just how rubbish Lacazette is/has been.

Accurate.
I’m not sure which reality other folks are experiencing. Or if they’re just holding onto a glorious past like old hustlers talking about how they used to run the streets before new, slicker gangsters took over.

AAStyle

Clrnc wrote:
AAStyle- wrote:
Wenger would have died before making Arsenal wander around 10th like a EPL small club. Emery is not a top-tier manager, his place is something like Valencia or Sevilla at best.

As I said before, 6 points can be the difference between finishing 6th and finishing 10th. The margins are very tight.

AAStyle

speedy wrote:
AAStyle- wrote:
Wenger would have died before making Arsenal wander around 10th like a EPL small club. Emery is not a top-tier manager, his place is something like Valencia or Sevilla at best.

So, a top 4 side that's better than us in european competitions?

Top 4 in La Liga is not as hard as top 4 in the EPL. Top4 in EPL is like fighting in the Colosseum against 4 or 5 different kind of gladiators (hispanics, africans, british) + beasts.

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