Has Arteta Truly Turned it Around?: Page 133 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Has Arteta Truly Turned it Around?

Big Willie

To think this all kicked off cuz I called him our own Tim Sherwood lol. Jeez

Big Willie

Don Pacifico wrote:
I didn't say anything about not criticising players.

Wait, so criticising players is fair game but not the manager? Wut?

Qwiss

Big Willie wrote:
To think this all kicked off cuz I called him our own Tim Sherwood lol. Jeez

You shouldn't slag off Tim Sherwood, he's an Arsenal fan too.

mdgoonah41

in my opinion, the fact that we all spend so much time on this forum and care so much about this club is a point in our favor, not something to criticize for. the club would be worse off if fans turned fully apathetic and just moved on to something else. if i didnt support or care about arsenal, i wouldnt spend 20 minutes typing out novel length posts bitching about arteta and what formation we should play and why ramsdale sucks. i still wake up at 730am to watch early kickoffs, on what should be my days to rest and enjoy myself, and arsenal has ruined so many weekends for me in the last 10 years.

when you make your living playing a sport to entertain people, you are open to criticism. obviously there is a line there, no one should be subjected to racial abuse, over the top vindictive insults, and having their family harassed. but these guys are making more money in a year than a lot of people make in a lifetime. taking criticism is part of their occupation. they can either engage with it, or just ignore it. i understand ignoring it is hard, but thats a part of life and part of the cost of making millions a year playing a game. if arteta doesnt want to be subjected to constant criticism, he could pick a lower stakes career, like being a tv pundit.

Don Pacifico

flobaba wrote:
Don Pacifico wrote:
From where I'm standing, I don't get why criticisms of our own need to resort to ad hominem insults. For me, it feeds into the hyperbolic vitriol as per the above that characterises them as enemies of the club rather than flawed individuals who are trying their best.

As I see it, the role of fans are to support and perhaps it's just my perception but it begins to feel like some become invested in those they've characterised as enemies of the club, failing.

Maybe I've got it wrong but that seems quite sad to me.

Generally, I agree with the sentiment. However, I must say I don’t see Arteta as one of “ours” like you, and quite a few on here, do. I mean he was a decent servant to the club and all, but ultimately he isn’t a club legend and I don’t see why I should feel less inclined to insult him (if I were the type who insulted managers) compared to say, Silvestre/Gallas.

Heck, many grew frustrated even with the great one Arsene Wenger when he started us along this downward path, and now you don’t think someone who looks like he is only dropping down further will get some abuse?

Fair enough but he's currently employed by the club and most likely trying his best to achieve success.

And yeah, I get it, regardless of what I'm saying, people will insult players. I guess it's a reflection on the fact that I don't personally enjoy the dialogue from fans around our club right now. Whilst I'm not blind to things that are wrong, it feels relentlessly negative, so if I feel that, imagine how the staff feel?

Don Pacifico

Big Willie wrote:
Don Pacifico wrote:
I didn't say anything about not criticising players.

Wait, so criticising players is fair game but not the manager? Wut?

I never said that.

Difference between criticism and abuse.

goon

I'm with Don on this one and I think I raised this a few months back. FWIW for me it's the same with players regardless of who it might be.

For me there's a difference between even fierce criticism and venting frustration and then just taking the piss in a degrading/abusive way for the sake of it. The latter has never sat right with me - it's particularly galling when you see the same insults you get from rival fans being recycled, but to each their own.

Big Willie

People venting on a closed forum like this one is galling to you but having others come on here attempting to call you a lesser fan is somehow ok? Sure, makes sense.

Don Pacifico

Don't know if you're referring to me but when did I call you a lesser fan?

goon

Big Willie wrote:
People venting on a closed forum like this one is galling to you but having others come on here attempting to call you a lesser fan is somehow ok? Sure, makes sense.

Pretty much. But it's only because I care, you can still redeem yourself.

AAStyle

With that line of reasoning the classic chant "sacked in the morning" would never have been created.

Btw, I really hope that chant starts to be fully heard asap in the stadium

Big Willie

Don Pacifico wrote:
Don't know if you're referring to me but when did I call you a lesser fan?

I was referring to you Don. Your whole "who needs fans" bit in response to my calling him our own Tim Sherwood was just that not to mention insinuating what I said was "bile" now that's insulting to me as a fan. In any case the statement you responded to isn't really even an insult by the way. They were both inexperienced as hell and given big jobs they weren't ready for. Only difference being we held onto our rookie for 2 years whilst they got rid after 6 months.

You also defined "the role of fans is to support" as if to say anyone who criticises the club or manager does not fit into that definition.

You then go on to say "perhaps it's just my perception but it begins to feel like some become invested in those they've characterised as enemies of the club, failing."

No, no one wasn't to see Arteta fail. Plenty of us having given him enough time and chances to make things work. The club has given him plenty of backing to make things work. It's not that we want to see him fail, it's that we see he's already failed and want him out as a result.

I get it, you, goon, Speedy and Ricky have full belief in Arteta and think he's the right man for the job and that the players are holding him back and as a result want 10-20 players out of the club. I see Arteta as the one holding us and want to see him out of the club. If that makes me a shitty fan in some of your eyes then so be it, I'm not here for anyone's approval.

goon

AAStyle- wrote:
With that line of reasoning the classic chant "sacked in the morning" would never have been created.

Btw, I really hope that chant starts to be fully heard asap in the stadium

That's almost always sung by opposition fans, so you're sort of proving my point.

AAStyle

goon wrote:
AAStyle- wrote:
With that line of reasoning the classic chant "sacked in the morning" would never have been created.

Btw, I really hope that chant starts to be fully heard asap in the stadium

That's almost always sung by opposition fans, so you're sort of proving my point.

The same line can be used for criticism or mockery. A fan chanting "sacked in the morning" is just showing his opinion about the manager of his/her team. Opposition fans can say whatever they want, I don't care.

Edit: But yes, my first premise may be wrong, because by mockery alone the chant may have arisen.

y va marquer

I had the impression that we've been repeatedly losing our opening PL fixture non-stop over the past 10 years - not quite, but we've only won four.
August is generally quite a miserable month for Arsenal fans as we watch some wildly enthusiastic, newly promoted, clubs get off to flying starts (often courtesy of ourselves).
I envy the craic that those Brentford fans had last Friday.

If August follows the usual pattern then Arteta will have some job on his hands to get the fans back onside.

Maybe the Brentford result, coupled with the challenge of playing Chelsea at The Emirates, will focus the minds and attitude for a stirring victory.

Don Pacifico

Big Willie wrote:
Don Pacifico wrote:
Don't know if you're referring to me but when did I call you a lesser fan?

I was referring to you Don. Your whole "who needs fans" bit in response to my calling him our own Tim Sherwood was just that not to mention insinuating what I said was "bile" now that's insulting to me as a fan. In any case the statement you responded to isn't really even an insult by the way. They were both inexperienced as hell and given big jobs they weren't ready for. Only difference being we held onto our rookie for 2 years whilst they got rid after 6 months.

You also defined "the role of fans is to support" as if to say anyone who criticises the club or manager does not fit into that definition.

You then go on to say "perhaps it's just my perception but it begins to feel like some become invested in those they've characterised as enemies of the club, failing."

No, no one wasn't to see Arteta fail. Plenty of us having given him enough time and chances to make things work. The club has given him plenty of backing to make things work. It's not that we want to see him fail, it's that we see he's already failed and want him out as a result.

I get it, you, goon, Speedy and Ricky have full belief in Arteta and think he's the right man for the job and that the players are holding him back and as a result want 10-20 players out of the club. I see Arteta as the one holding us and want to see him out of the club. If that makes me a shitty fan in some of your eyes then so be it, I'm not here for anyone's approval.

Maybe I'm looking at things a bit cock-eyed but I don't think anything I've said suggests you're a lesser fan. I've disagreed and criticised your stance (albeit the vast majority of what I've said over the last couple of pages were actually generalised statements in response to other people's comments rather than specifically a comment on you as an individual) but I don't think I've done anything that constitutes anything insulting. But I guess your response to feeling I have insulted you is maybe indicative of the point I'm trying to make?

For what it's worth, I very much do not have full belief in Arteta. Nor do goon or Ricky as far as I can tell. I think we just disagree with some of the responses on here and how people are presenting reality. I get that other people feel stronger about wanting Arteta gone but for me, I don't think that warrants abuse or a continuous stream 'Poundland Peps' (etc.). And I know people disagree with that.

As I said, I think it cumulatively creates quite a toxic culture around the club that ultimately gets transmitted to the players.

Ray

You really think the tolly is that influential?

Don Pacifico

Yeah, that's not what I've said dude.

Ricky1985

Big Willie wrote:
I get it, you, goon, Speedy and Ricky have full belief in Arteta and think he's the right man for the job and that the players are holding him back and as a result want 10-20 players out of the club. I see Arteta as the one holding us and want to see him out of the club. If that makes me a shitty fan in some of your eyes then so be it, I'm not here for anyone's approval.

I definitely do not have full belief, things are really dicey right now and we're going to find out very soon whether Arteta is up to the job or not. I'd say it's 50/50, probably more like 40/60 against, that he comes through and turns it around. In fact, even typing that seems optimistic given the mood around the club right now - inside and out

But I don't think he's useless, I don't think he's vindictive, or working to his own interests (no more than anyone else anyway, and certainly not in a way that screws the club over). I do think he has been given a monumentally difficult job, at a time in football when it's literally as bad as things can be, and everyone else at the club is leaning on him because they don't really know what they're doing.

I do think he has become a figure of hate amongst many fans, including on here. And I don't think that is too strong a word either. I think much of the criticism is unfair and lays too much of the blame at Arteta's feet, ignoring the wider context of what has gone before at Arsenal during the past 10 years - the ineptitiude and indifference toward winning shown by Wenger and those running the club, and the monotony and misery of supporting the club as a result. And the wider context, as I alluded to above, a global pandemic that has killed the transfer market dead at a time when we all know a squad overhaul was desperately needed and long, LONG overdue. We just can't get rid without paying them to go away - it's a damn nightmare.

It feels like sometimes I'm reading posts on here from an alternate universe where our problems begin and end with Mikel Arteta.

KingslandBarge

Don Pacifico wrote:
Maybe I've got it wrong but that seems quite sad to me.

I hear it DP. Your voice belongs in the dissonance and I invite you not feel it diminished - spread that alt. line of discourse (or whatever you like).

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