Arsenal exits Jan 2022: Page 107 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Arsenal exits Jan 2022

Jed

We’ll regret this one just like we did Martinez.

QuincyAbeyie

Don Pacifico wrote:
For someone that's had two months of form, I'd say it's pretty good. I like Willock but with the reaction on here, you'd think we were selling Saka. And yet Willock would barely start any games anyway - so what would be the point in keeping him here to warm the bench?

Lol, I think you'd be in for a surprise if you think this would be the limit of the reactions if we sold Saka.
Why shouldn't he started any games? If ESR is injured/resting Willock is the guy I'd put there, same if one of the CMs got injured. Surely everyone else than the 11 preferred players aren't "just warming the bench".

TambourineMan

What the hell is going on with Torreira?

Gazza M

guy has major personal problems. don't know who would take someone in his condition for anything other than a pittance

flobaba

Gazza M wrote:
its moreso what it says about the direction we're heading. selling Martinez then targeting ramsdale, selling willock while retaining the services of xhaka/elneny, selling nketiah and targeting Tammy Abraham, jerking saliba around on loans then dropping 50m on white. taken in totality, it's red flag city to me

We managed to keep Willian so far too. There’s a certain unmistakable madness to our method.

Don Pacifico

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
Don Pacifico wrote:
For someone that's had two months of form, I'd say it's pretty good. I like Willock but with the reaction on here, you'd think we were selling Saka. And yet Willock would barely start any games anyway - so what would be the point in keeping him here to warm the bench?

Lol, I think you'd be in for a surprise if you think this would be the limit of the reactions if we sold Saka.
Why shouldn't he started any games? If ESR is injured/resting Willock is the guy I'd put there, same if one of the CMs got injured. Surely everyone else than the 11 preferred players aren't "just warming the bench".

You'd do that off the back of a purple patch at Newcastle? I'm fairly confident very few people would have suggested this six months ago and I don't think that much has changed about him as a player since then other than the hype.

People saying we're going to regret this - maybe we will. But the overwhelming evidence when it comes to youth players we've let go on the past, is that they never reach the levels we aspire to. As much as I like Willock, I don't see him as reaching that level either.

jones

goon wrote:
Don Pacifico wrote:
For someone that's had two months of form, I'd say it's pretty good. I like Willock but with the reaction on here, you'd think we were selling Saka. And yet Willock would barely start any games anyway - so what would be the point in keeping him here to warm the bench?

I wouldn’t pay too much attention to it, this forum has a weird fetish when it comes to transfer fees. Last summer they reckoned AMN and Bellerin were worth over £30-40m each.

We just paid 50m for a defender who's shown little more than two months of form himself. We're looking at 40m for a goalie who's dogshit and another 40m for a striker who's half donkey. We get between 20m and 25m for a midfielder who's also English, had the best last half season out of all of them and who's at least two years younger and you lot think it's a good fee. You're the best type of customer Arteta Kroenke and Co could wish for.

Gazza M

flobaba wrote:
Gazza M wrote:
its moreso what it says about the direction we're heading. selling Martinez then targeting ramsdale, selling willock while retaining the services of xhaka/elneny, selling nketiah and targeting Tammy Abraham, jerking saliba around on loans then dropping 50m on white. taken in totality, it's red flag city to me

We managed to keep Willian so far too. There’s a certain unmistakable madness to our method.

you can add signing and playing willian instead of pepe last season to the list. so much self sabotage, like trying to blow a hole in a ship that's already capsized

jones

Don Pacifico wrote:
Quincy Abeyie wrote:
Lol, I think you'd be in for a surprise if you think this would be the limit of the reactions if we sold Saka.
Why shouldn't he started any games? If ESR is injured/resting Willock is the guy I'd put there, same if one of the CMs got injured. Surely everyone else than the 11 preferred players aren't "just warming the bench".

You'd do that off the back of a purple patch at Newcastle? I'm fairly confident very few people would have suggested this six months ago and I don't think that much has changed about him as a player since then other than the hype.

People saying we're going to regret this - maybe we will. But the overwhelming evidence when it comes to youth players we've let go on the past, is that they never reach the levels we aspire to. As much as I like Willock, I don't see him as reaching that level either.

Most of us would ideally keep Willock here as a rotational player who'd start some 20 to 30 games since we barely have anybody in midfield. Partey is the only undisputed starter and he's always injured. Willock is very young and what you call a purple patch could well be his development curve that's taking off. If we absolutely have to sell him it at least should be for more than Chelsea get for their rejects with 0 minutes PL experience, watch ofty come in now though to explain how that's a false analogy somehow.

Clrnc

Don Pacifico wrote:
But the overwhelming evidence when it comes to youth players we've let go on the past, is that they never reach the levels we aspire to.

I agree with the rest of your post, but this has turned out to be completely the opposite. We have had a golden generation coming through under Jonker and we let go of all of them for peanuts and they have came good, fetched amazing fees and would easily start for us. Basically we let go of all of them for a combined fee of less than 10m, with no buybacks and shit add-ons.

We have definitely regretted Martinez badly, but I have never thought Willock will become an amazing player. 20m-25m is a shit fee considering how hyped up he is and what others is selling unknowns for, we have much to learn in terms of selling still.

Don Pacifico

jones wrote:
Don Pacifico wrote:
You'd do that off the back of a purple patch at Newcastle? I'm fairly confident very few people would have suggested this six months ago and I don't think that much has changed about him as a player since then other than the hype.

People saying we're going to regret this - maybe we will. But the overwhelming evidence when it comes to youth players we've let go on the past, is that they never reach the levels we aspire to. As much as I like Willock, I don't see him as reaching that level either.

Most of us would ideally keep Willock here as a rotational player who'd start some 20 to 30 games since we barely have anybody in midfield. Partey is the only undisputed starter and he's always injured. Willock is very young and what you call a purple patch could well be his development curve that's taking off. If we absolutely have to sell him it at least should be for more than Chelsea get for their rejects with 0 minutes PL experience, watch ofty come in now though to explain how that's a false analogy somehow.

I'd love to keep him around as a squad player but realistically, his value will decline if we do that (as per AMN). Maybe his time at Newcastle will be the start of his development but I have my doubts.

Clrnc wrote:
Don Pacifico wrote:
But the overwhelming evidence when it comes to youth players we've let go on the past, is that they never reach the levels we aspire to.

I agree with the rest of your post, but this has turned out to be completely the opposite. We have had a golden generation coming through under Jonker and we let go of all of them for peanuts and they have came good, fetched amazing fees and would easily start for us. Basically we let go of all of them for a combined fee of less than 10m, with no buybacks and shit add-ons.

We have definitely regretted Martinez badly, but I have never thought Willock will become an amazing player. 20m-25m is a shit fee considering how hyped up he is and what others is selling unknowns for, we have much to learn in terms of selling still.

Martinez, Malen and Bennacer are the only potential regrets I can honestly think of (Gnabry wanted to go). On the other side of that equation, we've shifted a tonne of youth players who weren't good enough despite potential hype (eg. Merida, Zelalem, Barazite, Aneke, Afobe, Bielik etc.).

For me, I think Willock will end up being closer to that second group of players than the first. May be proven wrong but I don't currently see it.

jones

Merida left 11 years ago mate, the "potential regrets" in Malen, Bennacer, Jeff were schoolboys back then. I also fail to see how Gnabry wanting to leave because we put a bloke with wooden feet and explosive knees in his path is somehow not a regret.

I see a whole lot of explaining mistakes away to be honest. There are a few things the club has done well recently, e.g. the extension of contracts where there wasn't a whole lot saying we could tie down the likes of Saka, Auba before him or even Balogun. But the way Arteta decides who's worthy of his time and the fees we get for our sales are absolutely abysmal, there are no two ways about it.

Don Pacifico

I think you've missed the point I was trying to make on the disparity between how the fanbase rate our youth players vs what they end up achieving in their careers.

I'm not commenting on extension of contracts (etc.) as I think there's plenty that we've done poorly there but it is also has nothing to do with the point I'm making.

QuincyAbeyie

Don Pacifico wrote:
Quincy Abeyie wrote:
Lol, I think you'd be in for a surprise if you think this would be the limit of the reactions if we sold Saka.
Why shouldn't he started any games? If ESR is injured/resting Willock is the guy I'd put there, same if one of the CMs got injured. Surely everyone else than the 11 preferred players aren't "just warming the bench".

You'd do that off the back of a purple patch at Newcastle? I'm fairly confident very few people would have suggested this six months ago and I don't think that much has changed about him as a player since then other than the hype.

People saying we're going to regret this - maybe we will. But the overwhelming evidence when it comes to youth players we've let go on the past, is that they never reach the levels we aspire to. As much as I like Willock, I don't see him as reaching that level either.

Newcastle are paying 25m for him based on that purple patch, but it's farfetched to give him the chance as a backup following it? I'm fairly certain they wouldn't have bought him for thst price six months ago.

goon

Not really the smart way to make decisions though, is it? Would you want to buy a player based on a hot patch? If anything I'd want the scouting department to look past it. For example, what's the likelyhood that he, as a backup, in our system and against sides who defend deep that he could perform at similar levels?

QuincyAbeyie

If people wanted to sell Willock before he went on loan it'd be keeping him solely on what could be a purple patch. But the fact is that many rated him and wanted him to get a loan, then he got one and performed well. What even is the point of loaning out players other than increasing their value if whatever they do on loan shouldn't be accounted for later because it could just be a purple patch? I think running from deep is necessary no matter what kind of defences you face.

Clrnc

Don Pacifico wrote:
Clrnc wrote:
I agree with the rest of your post, but this has turned out to be completely the opposite. We have had a golden generation coming through under Jonker and we let go of all of them for peanuts and they have came good, fetched amazing fees and would easily start for us. Basically we let go of all of them for a combined fee of less than 10m, with no buybacks and shit add-ons.

We have definitely regretted Martinez badly, but I have never thought Willock will become an amazing player. 20m-25m is a shit fee considering how hyped up he is and what others is selling unknowns for, we have much to learn in terms of selling still.

Martinez, Malen and Bennacer are the only potential regrets I can honestly think of (Gnabry wanted to go). On the other side of that equation, we've shifted a tonne of youth players who weren't good enough despite potential hype (eg. Merida, Zelalem, Barazite, Aneke, Afobe, Bielik etc.).

For me, I think Willock will end up being closer to that second group of players than the first. May be proven wrong but I don't currently see it.

Our outgoings sales has been terrible for years. People started to take notice of it early last decade but it has only gone worse and there are too many examples of it. Far more negatives than positives, if you directly compare it to what other clubs are getting for their young nobodies compared to our players who are actually useful and came good. I agree with you about Willock. FWIW I think 20-25m is decent if we absolutely need that money to get Maddison, but not when you compare with all the other top 5 clubs outgoing. We have sold way under market rate again.

We have gotten rid of (Won't include Gnabry, different discussion) Bennacer, Kamara, Szczesny, Malen, JRA etc for a grand total of slightly more than 13m (most of it from Szczesny's 10m). Each one of them is worth at least 15m or more. JRA was sold by Angers for 25m euros 1 year after we sold him for 200k, and then 2 years later Lyon flipped him again for 30m euros for example.

That's before we include 2nd rate talents like Ajayi, Hayden, Bartley, Olsson, Da Silva who have all had good career and was sold for peanuts.

I am of the opinion that we either sucked very badly at marketing our players and promoting their value, or all the other clubs are doing accounting fraud.

Don Pacifico

If we're talking about the price we sold them at, then I agree, we've not done a good job.

The point I was making was more about whether the choice to sell was the right one or not.

Ricky1985

Lots of rumours tonight about Newcastle coming in for Rob Holding. £20m is the fee being mentioned.

Find a buyer for Bellerin, sign a starting right back, and move Chambers inside as our 3rd/4th centreback.

lorddulaarsenal

Sounds good Tricky.

Also makes room for Saliba the following season as we could move Chambers on then.

Linked with Chiek Dacoure for midfield today. Another talented youngster

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