I'd rather have a player that could actually pull that kind of thing off consistently than a player who wouldn't try it because it's "crazy". The biggest problem with Xhaka has always been that he isn't actually good enough - his decision-making wouldn't be such a problem otherwise.

The key word for you is consistency though. He has more fails than success in that regard

Exactly. Because he's not good enough.

I think that exact move we're talking about is something nobody should attempt even if they're prime Messi.

Well then you prefer the handbrake on - good on ya.

No.

I think he's fairly consistent actually. He's not good enough but I do think he's a bit of a victim of being tasked with having to be the main man in the midfield since joining. He's simply not up to that task and in a team that's not playing well it quickly exposes him and his weakneses. For the brief period Torreira looked good and now with Partey, he's more than serviceable, particularly for a top 4 challenge. It's also why (imo), he's looked better in a midfield three, because the expectation and demands from him are significantly reduced.

goon wrote:

I think he's fairly consistent actually. He's not good enough but I do think he's a bit of a victim of being tasked with having to be the main man in the midfield since joining. He's simply not up to that task and in a team that's not playing well it quickly exposes him and his weakneses. For the brief period Torreira looked good and now with Partey, he's more than serviceable, particularly for a top 4 challenge. It's also why (imo), he's looked better in a midfield three, because the expectation and demands from him are significantly reduced.

Little wonder he looked/looks so good at BMG (& his national team?) when playing in a midfield 5 - the more bodies around him = the less likelihood of him being exposed out of possession.

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

I think that exact move we're talking about is something nobody should attempt even if they're prime Messi.

I have no objections to players doing this if it's within their capability and it's done to break the press/create space etc.
The caveat to that is regards to the where on the pitch they do it, and more specifically not in our defensive 3rd.

Kudos to Xhaka for a better performance v CFC. Was tempted to describe it as being more mature. Now with his comments calling for consistency I want to see him lead by example for the remainder of the season.

@[deleted] That's why I specified "that exact move". No players do double nutmegs like that in our own box and are likely to succeed.

Anzac wrote:

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

I think that exact move we're talking about is something nobody should attempt even if they're prime Messi.

I have no objections to players doing this if it's within their capability and it's done to break the press/create space etc.
The caveat to that is regards to the where on the pitch they do it, and more specifically not in our defensive 3rd.

So you do have objections.

This is how you break out of a high press and move through the lines at pace. This is how you avoid the horseshoe of death. Being against playing out from the back is being against playing good attacking football.

Putting in the weird, irrelevant caveat of "that exact move" is disingenuous and nitpicking to the extreme. You play the game that's in front of you, and if you get out, you get out. You need to have to the skill and intelligence to do it, however you can, on a regular basis. Xhaka does not have that.

And why the hell would Messi, a forward, ever be doing that anyway? It's a stupid thing to say. Xavi could do something like that once a game, maybe more. Xhaka does it once per season. That's the difference.

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

@[deleted] That's why I specified "that exact move". No players do double nutmegs like that in our own box and are likely to succeed.

Agreed.  
Further to that we've seen the results of something far less demanding being attempted by an elite level player on the edge of our area and going wrong = Fabregas' no look backheel v Barca that was intercepted and scored from.

Coombs wrote:

Anzac wrote:

I have no objections to players doing this if it's within their capability and it's done to break the press/create space etc.
The caveat to that is regards to the where on the pitch they do it, and more specifically not in our defensive 3rd.

So you do have objections.

This is how you break out of a high press and move through the lines at pace. This is how you avoid the horseshoe of death. Being against playing out from the back is being against playing good attacking football.

Putting in the weird, irrelevant caveat of "that exact move" is disingenuous and nitpicking to the extreme. You play the game that's in front of you, and if you get out, you get out. You need to have to the skill and intelligence to do it, however you can, on a regular basis. Xhaka does not have that.

And why the hell would Messi, a forward, ever be doing that anyway? It's a stupid thing to say. Xavi could do something like that once a game, maybe more. Xhaka does it once per season. That's the difference.

I used Messi as an example of how even the most skillful player isn't capable of doing that on a regular basis, even Messi would fail more often than succeeding in attempting it. Talk of where Messi plays is therefore disingenuous and nitpicking to the extreme.

I obviously added the very relevant caveat of "that exact move" because it was in the most risky position possible and that's the only thing I had an issue with. 

Coombs wrote:

Anzac wrote:

I have no objections to players doing this if it's within their capability and it's done to break the press/create space etc.
The caveat to that is regards to the where on the pitch they do it, and more specifically not in our defensive 3rd.

So you do have objections.

This is how you break out of a high press and move through the lines at pace. This is how you avoid the horseshoe of death. Being against playing out from the back is being against playing good attacking football.

Putting in the weird, irrelevant caveat of "that exact move" is disingenuous and nitpicking to the extreme. You play the game that's in front of you, and if you get out, you get out. You need to have to the skill and intelligence to do it, however you can, on a regular basis. Xhaka does not have that.

And why the hell would Messi, a forward, ever be doing that anyway? It's a stupid thing to say. Xavi could do something like that once a game, maybe more. Xhaka does it once per season. That's the difference.

There are better/safer/more consistent ways to play out from the back and to beat the press than trying to nutmeg anyone, let alone doing it twice in the same play to beat the press and create space.  My philosophy is to keep it safe and simple in our defensive 3rd as opposed to trying something ambitious on the ball and risk a turn over in an area we do not have the time to recover, and even more so if you are effectively in our last line of defence with the majority of our players ahead of the ball - as seen v CFC.

The rest of your response is irrelevant to my comment, although I agree with the part in bold.

Anzac wrote:

There are better/safer/more consistent ways to play out from the back and to beat the press than trying to nutmeg anyone, let alone doing it twice in the same play to beat the press and create space.  My philosophy is to keep it safe and simple in our defensive 3rd as opposed to trying something ambitious on the ball and risk a turn over in an area we do not have the time to recover, and even more so if you are effectively in our last line of defence with the majority of our players ahead of the ball - as seen v CFC.

I don't think this is a particularly good philosophy to have. Maybe if you're trying to be a midtable team, but not if you have any ambition whatsoever.

Coombs wrote:

Anzac wrote:

There are better/safer/more consistent ways to play out from the back and to beat the press than trying to nutmeg anyone, let alone doing it twice in the same play to beat the press and create space.  My philosophy is to keep it safe and simple in our defensive 3rd as opposed to trying something ambitious on the ball and risk a turn over in an area we do not have the time to recover, and even more so if you are effectively in our last line of defence with the majority of our players ahead of the ball - as seen v CFC.

I don't think this is a particularly good philosophy to have. Maybe if you're trying to be a midtable team, but not if you have any ambition whatsoever.

Perhaps I'm sick and tired after watching too many players trying to keep the ball alive in our defensive 3rd and then turning over possession resulting in a goal scored against us.  I want the opposition to at least have to work for their reward and not us gift it to them.
IMO you play the options available to you v the risk involved.  Xhaka is often criticised here for often trying to take the more risky option and giving away possession and/or then trying to recover and give away a foul/goal.  
IMO playing out from the back is not about taking risks as it is about retaining control to draw the opposition out of position and then exploiting that space created to beat their press.  To further clarify IMO playing out from the back only applies to when you do so in a situation from a re-start such as a goal kick or throwing in where you start with possession of the ball, as opposed to regaining possession in your defensive 3rd and then counter attack.  Unfortunately the Xhaka contribution is not on the highlights I have seen, but I assume the action was from open play rather than a re-start by us?

EDIT - once you have beaten the press and are into the transition through the middle I want the ball to progress to the forwards as quickly as possible to again exploit space and numbers. Once we are in the opposition half and the ball is at the head of the play then anything goes when it comes to creating chances, including nutmegging players, step-overs or whatever (legal) means to create a shooting opportunity.

You can't beat the press without taking risks. They key is having players who are better at it and more consistent. The better we are, the more teams will stand off us and let us play - they'll have no choice.

Pragmatic football is like capitalist realism. It's arbitrarily constraining and fallaciously posits a factual and unavoidable condition of abjection. I reject this neofatalism.

Coombs wrote:

You can't beat the press without taking risks. They key is having players who are better at it and more consistent. The better we are, the more teams will stand off us and let us play - they'll have no choice.

Pragmatic football is like capitalist realism. It's arbitrarily constraining and fallaciously posits a factual and unavoidable condition of abjection. I reject this neofatalism.

Fair enough, although I disagree that you need to take risks to beat the press if you use movement to create passing triangles.  Similarly I only apply control-ball to playing out from the back as opposed to the transition through the middle or attacking play in the final 3rd.  I think the biggest difference is my want to keep it simple & minimal risks within our Defensive 3rd.  IMO we got caught trying to play out for both CFC goals, although the 2nd started with them having a throw in within our defensive 3rd.