Granit Xhaka: Page 3 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Granit Xhaka

QuincyAbeyie

Well it's not just about having a crystal clear idea. Does it even matter whether Arteta has that if isn't given the funds/players necessary?

goon

We've spent over 300m in the last 3 seasons and that's despite letting the likes of Sanchez and Ramsey go for free. There's nothing to suggest he wont be backed, even if it means we have to sell to do it. But yeah, it's vital we get back into the CL next year because having a list of valuable players to sell isn't going to happen every summer.

Claudius

On funds, I think what Kroenke might / should do is this

ease funding access as he has done by moving the loan to Kroenke UK
demand the MDs sort out the team’s financials. That means improving non football efficiencies, negotiating down Ozil’s contract, and then selling all unnecessary players
and then signing good new contracts this summer - eg Aubameyang on an inventive laden contract etc.

Once all that is satisfied, then I think it’s okay to open the purse. You need to create stage gates for funding. When you’re funding a project, you don’t just hand over all the money up front. You need to make sure that the people you are handing the money to are able to spend it properly.

Claudius

This whole scouting downsizing issue has made me realize that football is a very inefficient industry, and results in experts being underpaid. A guy like Cagigao should be an independent contractor serving any team. Basically Arsenal should have a small team doing desktop research on video and data. When they’ve shortlisted a candidate, eg Joelson, they should contact Cagigao and tell him to go watch him and come back with non-standard information, eg off the ball movement, relationship with teammates and coaches, off the field behavior, family life, training routines, etc.

By outsourcing scouting, you can allow the best scouts to scale up and provide their services to everyone. They can focus on improving analysis, teams can focus on how they integrate that info in buying decisions

Burnwinter

Claud, don't you think there are some pretty obvious reasons why scouts shouldn't provide their services to many clubs at once?

Claudius

Nope. If they’re contracted to provide specific information, then there shouldn’t be a problem. You’re worried that Arsenal, Chelsea and Inter are all going to ask Cagigao for a report on Joelson? He would just give them the information they each request on the player. Its up to each of them to act on that information based on their squad building plans, cash and speed of decision making.

Instead of having dozens of agents from different clubs all across Europe covering Italy, you just need a few of the best agents really going in depth on the best players in Italy. And you all reach out to them when you need players. Your job as a club is to know you want those players and then integrate the data. It makes no sense for every club to replicate these pairs of eyes everywhere.

Anzac

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
The way I see it if we're signing a DM (Partey) and an AM (Coutinho we're selling Guendouzi and Torreira. If we sell Xhaka as well we'd need another midfielder, so there's no point. Keep him.

Ceballos - IMO Xhaka's availability for sale depends on if we are able to secure Ceballos for another year.

Anzac

Clrnc wrote:

Arteta has identified to improve him. Basically a new midfield 😆 Not hard to know that most of us is calling for an entirely new midfield too.

6 - Partey
8 - Ceballos
10 - Aouar (dream), Coutinho (more likely)

Aouar can also play as #8, and I'd also add Lemar as being another option as creative player alternative with Aouar and Coutinho.

Anzac

Claudius wrote:
This whole scouting downsizing issue has made me realize that football is a very inefficient industry, and results in experts being underpaid. A guy like Cagigao should be an independent contractor serving any team. Basically Arsenal should have a small team doing desktop research on video and data. When they’ve shortlisted a candidate, eg Joelson, they should contact Cagigao and tell him to go watch him and come back with non-standard information, eg off the ball movement, relationship with teammates and coaches, off the field behavior, family life, training routines, etc.

By outsourcing scouting, you can allow the best scouts to scale up and provide their services to everyone. They can focus on improving analysis, teams can focus on how they integrate that info in buying decisions

Was reading something along these lines recently in relation to our downsizing. IIRC the comment was that much scouting on the continent is done this way.

Burnwinter

Claudius wrote:
Instead of having dozens of agents from different clubs all across Europe covering Italy, you just need a few of the best agents really going in depth on the best players in Italy. And you all reach out to them when you need players. Your job as a club is to know you want those players and then integrate the data. It makes no sense for every club to replicate these pairs of eyes everywhere.

Interesting. I feel there would be conflict of interest issues, but that might reflect different perceptions about the limits of the scouting function, which would be altered by non-exclusive services like this anyway.

MistaT

C'mon Anzac, Lemar is as tainted (risky) as Coutinho at this point.

I'd be furious if we signed him.

QuincyAbeyie

Anzac wrote:
Quincy Abeyie wrote:
The way I see it if we're signing a DM (Partey) and an AM (Coutinho we're selling Guendouzi and Torreira. If we sell Xhaka as well we'd need another midfielder, so there's no point. Keep him.

Ceballos - IMO Xhaka's availability for sale depends on if we are able to secure Ceballos for another year.

We already had Ceballos this season. Can't have Guendouzi, Torreira and Xhaka out and Partey (and Coutinho) in.

Daz

Burnwinter wrote:
Claudius wrote:
Instead of having dozens of agents from different clubs all across Europe covering Italy, you just need a few of the best agents really going in depth on the best players in Italy. And you all reach out to them when you need players. Your job as a club is to know you want those players and then integrate the data. It makes no sense for every club to replicate these pairs of eyes everywhere.

Interesting. I feel there would be conflict of interest issues, but that might reflect different perceptions about the limits of the scouting function, which would be altered by non-exclusive services like this anyway.

Of course there would be conflicts of interest and underhanded stuff happening all over the place.

Claudius

Daz wrote:
Burnwinter wrote:
Interesting. I feel there would be conflict of interest issues, but that might reflect different perceptions about the limits of the scouting function, which would be altered by non-exclusive services like this anyway.

Of course there would be conflicts of interest and underhanded stuff happening all over the place.

You outsource your legal, your IT infrastructure and services, your financials. All kinds of capabilities that leave you open to conflicts off interest and underhanded stuff - but it usually doesn't happen because the parties on either end do so in good faith. A football club's job is to win games, not to build a scouting network around the world.

Burnwinter

Daz wrote:
Of course there would be conflicts of interest and underhanded stuff happening all over the place.

That was my thinking, but they might be fairly confined—after all, people might also get to hear about dodgy dealing pretty quickly.

Daz

Claudius wrote:
Daz wrote:
Of course there would be conflicts of interest and underhanded stuff happening all over the place.

You outsource your legal, your IT infrastructure and services, your financials. All kinds of capabilities that leave you open to conflicts off interest and underhanded stuff - but it usually doesn't happen because the parties on either end do so in good faith. A football club's job is to win games, not to build a scouting network around the world.

And you're assuming that outsourcing is both cheaper and better, but in reality that's not always the case. I also think that in football where multiple clubs would have an interest in the same players the risk and likelihood of dodgy stuff happening would be much greater. Basically, I'm just not buying what you're selling Claude.

Claudius

Daz wrote:
Claudius wrote:
You outsource your legal, your IT infrastructure and services, your financials. All kinds of capabilities that leave you open to conflicts off interest and underhanded stuff - but it usually doesn't happen because the parties on either end do so in good faith. A football club's job is to win games, not to build a scouting network around the world.

And you're assuming that outsourcing is both cheaper and better, but in reality that's not always the case. I also think that in football where multiple clubs would have an interest in the same players the risk and likelihood of dodgy stuff happening would be much greater. Basically, I'm just not buying what you're selling Claude.

You're already outsourcing. By using analytics. You need much less time in the field just by having data that eliminates 90% of your potential targets by brute force. The only difference here is instead of handing the responsibility to a computer, you're handing it to a person. Your responsibility as a club is to make a decision given information about targets. Let Cagigao refine the art of scouting. You should refine the art of defining a winning strategy for the team and integrating information from different data sources to improve recruiting. You obviously need some scouts on board to set scope for the 3rd parties and make final decisions, but you don't need a large network.

Klaus

Have to say I think your idea is horrible, Claude, and there are good reasons why clubs don't operate like this.

Scouts don't just find players, they study them to build mental profiles, to see how they would fit into the design, etc. We were reportedly watching Sagna 40 times or so before we signed him, and it wasn't just to decide whether he could defend or not.

Meatwad

and if we have to watch a player that many times to see if they have it then it's no wonder we got in the predicament we're currently in. when our glory years were still fresh we could watch a player like sagna for that long as the only big club on the hunt. but when our profile dropped other clubs started jumping in while we dithered and now francenal has missed out on an entire golden generation.

Klaus

😆 You don't think other clubs scouted players in 2007?

The point wasn't that you have to go to 40 games to decide on a player, but that there is much more than just determining whether someone has talent that goes into it.

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