Premier League 20/21: Page 207 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Premier League 20/21

lorddulaarsenal

A three of Grealish Mount and Foden behind a striker is delish

QuincyAbeyie

That red card 😆

Qwiss

Gunner89 wrote:
Now is the right time to sell Willock rather than get him back and sell him for peanuts in 2-3 years.

If we sell Willock now because he's shown how good he is when he's not held back by Arteta then the people in charge are idiots and need to all go.

FEBravo

Qwiss! wrote:
Gunner89 wrote:
Now is the right time to sell Willock rather than get him back and sell him for peanuts in 2-3 years.

If we sell Willock now because he's shown how good he is when he's not held back by Arteta then the people in charge are idiots and need to all go.

Yeah, seems to me it strengthens the case of how letting the creative attacking talent a bit of freedom to play without fear of making a mistake seems quite liberating.

Claudius

The problem is Willock is not a creative attacking talent. He is a 2nd striker. We are going to keep him and really struggle to integrate this guy. He has very little ability as a midfielder. We cannot play him a s a 10. He has some of the worst build-up numbers in the league, but some of the best scoring numbers fo a midfielder. So the only way we play him potentially is if we have two ball dominant midfielders (e..g, Odegaard and Partey), and he can play off them, running into the box off their feeds. I wouldn’t even put him into a V midfield with ESR because ESR himself is very much an off the ball midfielder. So he has to stay with a very clear plan for his very particular spiky attributes.

Claudius

Wolves getting their pushed in good.

Klaus

I whink Willock has everything needed to turn into a really great box to box midfielder personally. He has the drive of Guendouzi but also the cleverness that Douzi lacks. The moment Willock got his first break in the first team he started taking balls on the half turn, dropping shoulders, moving off the ball - stuff that Guendouzi still can't do three years later. There's a lot of energy and spirit in his performances, and the goalscoring knack is just another bonus. What's lacking now is accomplishment and experience, but that comes with 50-70 starts under your belt. We should bring him back this summer and then decide whether to use him or send him somewhere else for a year.

Qwiss

Claudius wrote:
The problem is Willock is not a creative attacking talent. He is a 2nd striker. We are going to keep him and really struggle to integrate this guy. He has very little ability as a midfielder. We cannot play him a s a 10. He has some of the worst build-up numbers in the league, but some of the best scoring numbers fo a midfielder. So the only way we play him potentially is if we have two ball dominant midfielders (e..g, Odegaard and Partey), and he can play off them, running into the box off their feeds. I wouldn’t even put him into a V midfield with ESR because ESR himself is very much an off the ball midfielder. So he has to stay with a very clear plan for his very particular spiky attributes.

He's played in CM pretty much every time he's started for Newcaste. He's shows a lot of maturity beyond his goal scoring this year when I've watched Newcastle, for me he's clearly a better player than Elneny and much more consist and more dangerous than Ceballos. He may not be ready to be a nailed on starter for us but he's more than ready for the minutes those 2 have had. That he contributes in attack doesn't mean he's a number 10/second striker, people need to get past this Arteta idea that if a midfielder actually contributes in attack he's not a real midfielder.

Klaus

Selling him should be out of the question though, I agree with Qwiss. I genuinely don't get this obsession with generating value. The only value that matters is what players can bring onto the pitch. If a young player shows real promise then they should be kept and backed, not shipped off as soon as we can get a few million for them. Yes, there's always the risk Willock will be worth less in the future, but there's no guarantee that shipping him now is going to have a net benefit on the pitch anyway. It's not like we're pooling all the money from player sales into a fund that we'll use to bring in Mbappe or something. Whatever we earn will probably go to subsidizing Willian's wages or similar, maybe sign another Luiz or Cedric. When you deal with young players you deal in potential. Shipping them off when they show it is completely backwards behaviour.

Claudius

Qwiss! wrote:
Claudius wrote:
The problem is Willock is not a creative attacking talent. He is a 2nd striker. We are going to keep him and really struggle to integrate this guy. He has very little ability as a midfielder. We cannot play him a s a 10. He has some of the worst build-up numbers in the league, but some of the best scoring numbers fo a midfielder. So the only way we play him potentially is if we have two ball dominant midfielders (e..g, Odegaard and Partey), and he can play off them, running into the box off their feeds. I wouldn’t even put him into a V midfield with ESR because ESR himself is very much an off the ball midfielder. So he has to stay with a very clear plan for his very particular spiky attributes.

He's played in CM pretty much every time he's started for Newcaste. He's shows a lot of maturity beyond his goal scoring this year when I've watched Newcastle, for me he's clearly a better player than Elneny and much more consist and more dangerous than Ceballos. He may not be ready to be a nailed on starter for us but he's more than ready for the minutes those 2 have had. That he contributes in attack doesn't mean he's a number 10/second striker, people need to get past this Arteta idea that if a midfielder actually contributes in attack he's not a real midfielder.

I don’t think that’s an Arteta idea. People like to compare Willock to Ramsey but Ramsey actually had build up ability. Willock has none. Here are his stats relative to other central midfielders. You can see that he has impressive ball progression and scoring numbers. But his passing game is incredibly weak. That is why I say he needs to play off 2 really good passers, otherwise your midfield will collapse.

Qwiss

Willock is 21 and we are talking about his game lacking the sort of midfield qualities that only come with experience. The guys not even fully developed physically, a couple of years and a bit more muscle and he'll be unreal.

We should be offering him a new deal in the summer not trying to sell.

We can generate value by selling players that are older anyway. Xhaka and Laca for instance still have value but we are going nowhere with them. 2 decent players but their time should up at Arsenal.

Qwiss

Claudius wrote:

I'd like to see those stats just for his time at Newcastle rather than the last 365 days.

Claudius

https://fbref.com/en/players/a3b03921/Joe-Willock

Go look. His attempted passes per 90 are actually down at Newcastle. No, Arteta was not making a worse player than he actually is. I know exactly what you are thinking

Klaus

Stats only show how he's being used. We used him in a more advanced role in the Europa League group stages for instance because we literally had no attacking midfielders.

It's a bit like Wenger taking Vermaelen and turning him into the best CB in the league in his debut season. Redknapp and a bunch of others commented on it with surprise and said they had been recommended him too, but as a fullback. You can't just analyse players based on which role they currently take.

Claudius

I have watched Willock for 2 seasons now. The kid has no build up game. That’s why I say he is like a 2nd striker. He has an incredible ability for running off the ball and getting into good goal scoring position. But watch him in build up passing the ball. He often makes the wrong decision about what to do on and off the ball. He is not very good for the passing game.

Looking back, it actually makes sense why we would throw him on with 15 minutes left when games were a little more open and there would be more space for him to make his runs. And maybe that is the same thinking going through Steve Bruce’s head right now. The numbers and managers’ thinking feels consistent

spacemanspiff

Luke Shaw with an unintentional but very silly and clear handball in the box - Craig Pawson looks at it on VAR - doesn't give it.

Ray

Willock reminds me slightly of Yaya Toure.

Gazza M

Claudius wrote:
I have watched Willock for 2 seasons now. The kid has no build up game. That’s why I say he is like a 2nd striker. He has an incredible ability for running off the ball and getting into good goal scoring position. But watch him in build up passing the ball. He often makes the wrong decision about what to do on and off the ball. He is not very good for the passing game.

Looking back, it actually makes sense why we would throw him on with 15 minutes left when games were a little more open and there would be more space for him to make his runs. And maybe that is the same thinking going through Steve Bruce’s head right now. The numbers and managers’ thinking feels consistent

not a big fan of these tweener players that are neither 10 or 8, unless they're genuinely outstanding to the point you can build around them. I was critical of alli since his breakthrough for similar reasons, because despite his hot form you could see the holes in his game that would weigh him down. I get a similar tweener vibe from willock, he's kind of neither here nor there at this point. leaning towards a fund-raising sale ala ox or iwobi

Clrnc

I would sell Willock too. He started as a RCM at Newcastle, but because he offered too little as a CM he got benched and became an impact sub.

And that's where he is at. He just have too little in his game as a CM for any top side to want. He hit a good form, sell while his value is good. He will never be a good enough fit for us.

Qwiss

There is no way he'd be benched right now if they owned him. Once they were safe they pivoted back to players they'll have long term. TBH can't blame them its perfectly sensible.

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