I recon that’s who we are targeting

I see winger mentioned a lot but I think we have enough cover on the wings with ESR & Pepe. If Pepe leaves we might need someone but even then I do wonder if we would spend big money when we have Saka & Martinelli. The Raphina rumours & alleged bid never made sense unless we plan to ditch one of our two?

Signing a top CM should be our priority, get that one right and we will have a really good season.

I agree. I just can't see us buying a winger now that will make a big difference. I'd rather wait till it's a priority so we can get someone who's top, top class.

In midfield though we really need more. And we need someone who has end product. Not getting Guimares was a big miss.

It's not end product I care about from a midfielder - I think if we had a midfield that could control the game in the way Arteta wants then Martinelli, Saka and Jesus will take care of that (even if the two kids are still a bit raw). I think we need a midfielder that ties the three together, someone you can't get the ball from, with genius awarenes of what's around him and the patience and control in the build up. I think we need a Xavi basically, if there's one going somewhere?

Even then I'm not quite convinced the Partey and Ødegaard roles are quite right. Ødegaard is too advanced and too right side biased and Partey maybe has too much responsibility and a lacks the big picture a little and I think really hurts us when things get tough.

Sounds like Neves would fit the bill for you Tricky

Also Arthur

——————Odegaard—-Paqueta
—-Saka———-Jesus———-Diaby

Do it for Dools

@lorddulaarsenal wrote:

——————Odegaard—-Paqueta
—-Saka———-Jesus———-Diaby

Do it for Dools

No Xhaka?

he’s in behind

Couple of spots needed:

RB - a backup RB with a bit more attacking ability, Cedric isn’t the guy and will cost us (Baku/Lamptey)
CM - Xhaka should be a decent backup option but not starting every game (FDJ / SMS)
Winger / CF - someone with a bit of height to win any long balls as a plan B (Gakpo)

Yeah you can see why the original target for CF was a big MF with strong hold up play. We really need the ball to stick to our CF when we are trying to play out from under pressure. Jesus is good, but that isn’t his strength.

I'd like to have that option, but what I would like even more is if Arteta can get the team to maintain intensity and play the game we want to play for the majority of most games. Jesus will be absolutely fine then. Adding a less talented, big mofo would be treating the symptom not the cause imo.

Well I don’t think that is realistic. This is the premier league, most teams are close to that level already, and it takes too much physical exertion - eventually will result in our players breaking down later in the season.

What we need is one or maybe two solid midfielders (or one central midfielder and one pacy, tricky winger for the outlet ball) with the ability to control the pace of the game. Give it to them and you know they will make the right pass to ease things, show up properly for the ball, and draw a foul at the right time, in the right way without getting themselves a yellow card.

We have Xhaka.

Liverpool and City do it - that's what we have to aim for. We won't get anywhere if our structure keeps collapsing any time a team starts kicking it long and sticking it on us.

We had Saliba, White, Zinchencko, Partey, Ødegaard, Martinelli, Saka and Jesus on the pitch yesterday - these guys can handle the ball and pass under pressure. Yet we still dropped back and the structure collapsed as a result. Once that happens everyone's passing goes to pot because chaos rules, players are not where they're coached to be.

I think Gabriel and Xhaka are also probably a bit to do with why we faultered in the first place. If there are weak links in the team then it's not hard for most teams to force the ball toward those weak players, especially if they're right next to each other on one side of the pitch, and then swarm them when they get the ball. They'll usually either panic and kick it long, play a bad pass to a team mate and put him under pressure or give it away all together.

It's hard to say how much those vulnerabilites lead to Palace going harder because it's working leading to us dropping deeper versus the effects of the long ball hurting us, and a drop in intensity because we just can't maintain that high energy and focus for longer than 20-minute bursts. Regardless of how much exactly each issue is effecting us, all those things were hurting us.

White coming in for Gabriel and Tomiyasu at right back can and will help in lots of games, and Xhaka switched out for a Smith Rowe or Vieira will help too, but, as I said, the problems are more than just our technical weak links, and we've got to find a way to fix issues too so we can stay up the pitch and maintain intensity. Every single player is better when we do that. We'll never do it for 90 minutes every game, but we have to do it for 60/70 minutes most weeks or there will be loads more games like last night, only we won't get so lucky in the big moments.

The technical ability of Liverpool and City's midfield is a full level above ours. Even with that, both have opted to bring in a big strong MF in Haaland and Nunez...

Henderson and Fabinho are far from technical wizards and certainly less skilled than Partey and Ødegaard. They often play Chamberlain with his cement block feet in there too. The difference is they've been working on their team structure and ability to maintain intensity for 7+ years. They don't wilt anywhere close to as easily as we do. It happens still don't get me wrong, but a few Joachim Andersen diagonals won't see them drop back to their own box and entirely lose the structure that their whole game is built on. When they do get pushed back they can be made to look very ordinary and their poorer technicians can really be got at.

City, yes, they have technical ability coming out of their arse. But then they sacrifice a little physicality for that extra technicality, and so when you get at them, you can really get at them. But they are very hard to crack and force back.

And Nunez and Haaland definitely do not meet my description above of a "less talented big mofo" - they're the unicorn strikers that can do it all.

You're doing a huge disservice to both Henderson and Fabinho, especially the latter. And they don't often play Chamberlain. I honestly can't remember the last time I saw him play for them. Instead they have a certain Thiago who does the tempo setting for them, and makes the right decisions and is super press resistant. Yes, their structure is more established, and helps their press and suits how they want to play. But I bet you they wouldn't look nearly as sturdy if they had Xhaka in there trying to play triangles with Martinelli (whose technique and quickness of thought/feet is a bit iffy as well if you ask me).

Edit: And the big MF I'm talking about doesn't necessarily have to be less talented. I'm not asking for an Andy Carroll or Mitrovic or even Giroud. I'm thinking more along the lines of the players we were actually in for or rumored to be in for in Vlahovic and Nunez and Osimhen. There's a reason that was the sort of player we wanted originally before we "settled" for Jesus.

Ox gets league cup games and minutes off the bench. They rarely use him at all. Guys stealing a living

flobaba wrote:

You're doing a huge disservice to both Henderson and Fabinho, especially the latter. And they don't often play Chamberlain. I honestly can't remember the last time I saw him play for them. Instead they have a certain Thiago who does the tempo setting for them, and makes the right decisions and is super press resistant. Yes, their structure is more established, and helps their press and suits how they want to play. But I bet you they wouldn't look nearly as sturdy if they had Xhaka in there trying to play triangles with Martinelli (whose technique and quickness of thought/feet is a bit iffy as well if you ask me).

Edit: And the big MF I'm talking about doesn't necessarily have to be less talented. I'm not asking for an Andy Carroll or Mitrovic or even Giroud. I'm thinking more along the lines of the players we were actually in for or rumored to be in for in Vlahovic and Nunez and Osimhen. There's a reason that was the sort of player we wanted originally before we "settled" for Jesus.

And I think you're doing a disservice to their structure.

I love Fabinho and rate Henderson way more than most, but they are not close to as techncially gifted as Partey and Ødegaard.

Thiago is a good example of what we're talking about in the Ødegaard thread. He's fantastic techncially, obviously, but when Liverpool get overrun he gets absolutely climbed on and run through. If you think you could drop him into our midfield yesterday and magically seize back control of the game then I strongly disagree. It takes the entire team to get up the pitch, in the correct spaces, playing with full intensity and fully dialled in with their touch and passing.

flobaba wrote:

Edit: And the big MF I'm talking about doesn't necessarily have to be less talented. I'm not asking for an Andy Carroll or Mitrovic or even Giroud. I'm thinking more along the lines of the players we were actually in for or rumored to be in for in Vlahovic and Nunez and Osimhen. There's a reason that was the sort of player we wanted originally before we "settled" for Jesus.

I don't think Osimhen or Vlahovic are near the levels of Nunez and Haaland though, and Jesus is technically probably the best of the lot, and a long way ahead of the former pair.

I'd love a striker that was 6'+, strong and athletic, but they've also got to be super smart and fantastic technically, and I'm pretty sure we don't have access right now to the few players like that out there.

Yeah those passes were pin point. Mind you we gave him too much time and space to pick them out.

Clrnc wrote:

Ricky1985 wrote:

Henderson and Fabinho are far from technical wizards and certainly less skilled than Partey and Ødegaard. They often play Chamberlain with his cement block feet in there too. The difference is they've been working on their team structure and ability to maintain intensity for 7+ years. They don't wilt anywhere close to as easily as we do. It happens still don't get me wrong, but a few Joachim Andersen diagonals won't see them drop back to their own box and entirely lose the structure that their whole game is built on. When they do get pushed back they can be made to look very ordinary and their poorer technicians can really be got at.

Joachim Andersen is a very very good CB though. His passing is very good. When I saw how good and intelligent he was on the ball I don't really blame our players

I'm not saying he's not a good passer, I'm saying Liverpool and City would suffer that for about 5 seconds before they stepped up and pressed him into mistakes.

Ricky1985 wrote:

Henderson and Fabinho are far from technical wizards and certainly less skilled than Partey and Ødegaard. They often play Chamberlain with his cement block feet in there too. The difference is they've been working on their team structure and ability to maintain intensity for 7+ years. They don't wilt anywhere close to as easily as we do. It happens still don't get me wrong, but a few Joachim Andersen diagonals won't see them drop back to their own box and entirely lose the structure that their whole game is built on. When they do get pushed back they can be made to look very ordinary and their poorer technicians can really be got at.

A lot of Liverpool's play is about using the CMs to basically press like mad and then get the ball out wide. They've got two superb attacking fullbacks and two superb wide attackers. The CMs are very good at switching play and getting the ball out wide quickly. Their CMs don't really need to be that silky or good on the ball as a lot of their attacking play happens out wide.

Yesterday too many times we got caught out trying to be too cute, if we want to be a possession team we need a better CM who can help retain possession. If we want to be more like Liverpool then we need to move the ball a hell of a lot quicker. I don't think we have completely settled on our style of play yet which is a bit worrying.

Also Jesus should have been man marking Andersen, that guy has a wand of a right foot and you cannot let someone like that keep pinging them over like that. We've improved in a lot of aspects this summer but I do worry about the midfield, things are up in the air with Partey and Xhaka isn't good enough. We need at least one player here this summer.

Get me this man

This team needs a player that can stand up a man and burst past him. Clever link play too.

@lorddulaarsenal wrote:

Get me this man

This team needs a player that can stand up a man and bust past him. Clever link play too.

Pepe 2.0

What a lazy comparison

I'm not convinced by Diaby's finishing, and I think if we are to bring in a wide player he's got be able to offer a serious goalscoring threat first and foremost. Saka and Martinelli are brilliant and will become 20-goal/season wide players, but if they don't get near that this season then our targets are going to be harder to attain.

It's a similar story in midfield for me. We have Smith Rowe and Vieira and I think they're just the right type of players for that 8/10 role we have either side of Partey, but they're not quite there yet, and we're going to have to be patient and accept they're a work in progress. That's why I'm for signing Tielemans even though I'm not a huge fan because he'll be cheap to buy and won't want silly wages, he's the right age and will still have re-sale value in 3 years, he can work in the 8/10 role and maybe Partey's 6 role too, and he will be ready to rumble from day one.

If there's a forward equivalent out there, I'd be all over that too.

Agreed re Tielmans.

Surely we are going to finally go after him this week before we play Leicester.

Or we have an agreement that he doesn’t play against us.

Would be cool to have the new Vieira and the new Diaby, the original of whom was also the new Vieira.

Tielemans is a strange one. His club want to sell him and he wants to leave. Will be a value deal as he has a year left on his contract... He is a very good player, even those that don't want him acknowledge that but seems like they want to hold out for WC level.. SMS or whatever.

Despite all of that there has been zero bids for him....

Either reports that he only wants us and we are waiting for the right time is correct, but seems less and less likely as the days go on or he wants to run down his contract. Weird situation

I'd be happy with a stop gap option like Tielemans if we then go big on a winger.

Preference:
--------------------------Back 5--------------------------
--------------------------Partey---------------------------
-------Ode (advanced)-------Tielemans (B2B)--------
-------Saka--------------Jesus------------Sane (go big!)

Or:

--------------------------Back 5--------------------------
--------------------------Partey---------------------------
-------Maddison (advanced)-------Ode (B2B)--------
-------Saka-------------Jesus------------Martinelli------

And sign a winger like Gakpo who'd be more of a rotation option/competition for Martinelli vs a marquee signing.

Either way, after this weekend and watching the Spurs game specifically I think we need to add one more goalscorer to our XI. I don't think we have enough goals in our XI to compete with Spurs if I'm being completely honest. Even if we're better than them in all other parts of the pitch we just can't compete with 40/50 goals from just Kane and Son and probably another 10 or so from Kulesevski.

At the moment, I think we have Jesus who is good for 15/20, Saka and one of ESR/Martinelli (depending on who starts more frequently) should be good for 10 or so (that's roughly just 40 from the three biggest attacking threats in our XI) and I don't think that's going to be enough. We need another player who'll be good for 10/15 goals or so - if not I think we will fall short again this season.

Doc wrote:

Despite all of that there has been zero bids for him....

Either reports that he only wants us and we are waiting for the right time is correct, but seems less and less likely as the days go on or he wants to run down his contract. Weird situation

Not that weird. One reason for this kind of thing is when the optimal bidding war for Tielemans, or the optimal destination from the player's point of view, can only crystallise after some other moves in the window are determined.

Maybe you are right, just would of expected a bit more action.. No reason a club like Newcastle wouldn't make a bid to test the club/players resolve... something is bound to happen soon.

if we wanted him that much we shoulda tried harder.

banduan wrote:

if we wanted him that much we shoulda tried harder.

Guimaraes has said we didn't come up with the money when it mattered.  Whilst I don't believe it was a funds issue I do believe it was more about needing to sell before we had room to buy in regards to numbers, wages and/or a vacancy in the starting XI.