Passing the time - Coronaedition: Page 6 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Passing the time - Coronaedition

Mirth

Qwiss! wrote:
Mirth wrote:
But people are getting healthier, living longer, have more access to food, education and shelter than at any previous point in history despite that. That isn't to pretend things are perfect because the world we live in has come at the cost of natural resources and the environment but claiming that nothing good has come out the current system is also untrue. Of course that isn't to say we need to accept the status quo but any better option needs to keep whatever advantages people enjoy now otherwise there's never going to be any support for it.

The creation of new medicines etc isn't exclusive to markets though or even capitalist countries. Much of it comes from state funded university research in the west and communist countries like Cuba and China create medicines too. There was plenty of invention in the USSR too. The idea that invention is a by product of capitalism and not something that happens within all systems has always struck me as absurd.

Of course, but purely capitalist countries and communist countries don't exist anyway and its a matter of incentives whoever provides them. It's a question of where on the scale you sit but pretending markets don't offer anything isn't realistic because you could look at India post 1991 and China after 1979 to see a difference that has made by engaging with markets and the impact that has had on well being and development. The stupidity of the West in the past 30-40 years has been the belief that the government has no role to play in all this and should be shrunk. Countries that recognise that are the ones that seem best equipped - even supposedly hyper capitalist societies like Singapore have a stronger welfare net than the United States for example.

Ultimately what I disagree with is the idea that people would accept a system without 'absurd luxuries' as Coombs would put it because people do not settle for less. Whatever compromise that's reached will need to achieve that same outcomes regardless of how you go about it for people to support it.

Qwiss

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
If Coombs wants to take away my Playstation I'm not listening to him.

Playstations are personal property, you can keep them. Micropayments would be banned, loot boxes would distributed the noobs who need them most.

Qwiss

Mirth wrote:
Ultimately what I disagree with is the idea that people would accept a system without 'absurd luxuries' as Coombs would put it because people do not settle for less. Whatever compromise that's reached will need to achieve that same outcomes regardless of how you go about it for people to support it.

I disagree with that too. Its not about eliminating luxuries. Overproduction of cheap goods is a massive ecological problem though. Take fast fashion as an example. Producing cotton has huge environmental impacts but high street fast fashion outlets sell stuff so cheap they throw away nearly as much as they produce. If you return clothes to these shops with the labels on they often go in the bin because its cheaper than taking the time to add them back to the stock in store. That sort of thing is entirely unsustainable.

Mirth

Qwiss! wrote:
Mirth wrote:
Ultimately what I disagree with is the idea that people would accept a system without 'absurd luxuries' as Coombs would put it because people do not settle for less. Whatever compromise that's reached will need to achieve that same outcomes regardless of how you go about it for people to support it.

I disagree with that too. Its not about eliminating luxuries. Overproduction of cheap goods is a massive ecological problem though. Take fast fashion as an example. Producing cotton has huge environmental impacts but high street fast fashion outlets sell stuff so cheap they throw away nearly as much as they produce. If you return clothes to these shops with the labels on they often go in the bin because its cheaper than taking the time to add them back to the stock in store. That sort of thing is entirely unsustainable.

Yeah, agree that fast fashion is grotesque but it's a question of whether the absurd luxury line is drawn there or at fashion itself because neither are strictly needed. The desire for fashion is a product of aspiration which won't go away fully even if current trends are boosted by modern day advertising.

Addressing something like fast fashion is possible in the realms of current regulation, better laws and resolutions like the EU's anti-planned obsolesce drive would go a long way.

jones

Claudius wrote:
You can’t do all that. LOL. You just need to start from scratch. Can’t go and take people’s money. Tyrants do that. What you do need to do is fix how capital is allocated throughout the business cycle.

That's a contradiction if I've ever seen one. What else if not reallocation of capital would a 100% taxation of any income or asset past 1bn be to you? Its dead money, its lying around doing fuck all but accumulate in tax havens while billions around the globe live with less than two dollars a day.

I disagree with Coombs notion that capitalism shouldn't be fixed. It's a fantasy to assume anything else could ever be implemented on a scale that matters, even if you found a way to do it locally ie Chavismo you wouldn't survive for very long. Everyone looking to move the needle regarding the status quo is fighting a losing battle, you should still be looking for battles where even in losing you can achieve some change. The point of any economic model or school was or should be the sustainable betterment of the material living conditions of the people. That was possible for a couple decades in the West for as long as the opposition of real socialism was looming on the horizon, and it has been possible under the Chinese model of state capitalism since Deng Xiaoping. Nothing else in modern times really ever worked, and both systems are or were primarily defined by reallocating and thereby limiting the accumulation of wealth.

In that regard Coombs is right in saying there's no point in villifying the rich, they're the embodiment of capitalism unchecked destroying the planet left right and centre, whether via wars pushed by the MIC, environmental destruction and global warming pushed by big oil and gas or financial deregulation and tax evasion and thereby obstruction of economic development of the 3rd world or hampering national budgets in developed economies. You prevent people and entities from accumulating too much wealth you prevent or at least hamper all of these developments.

QuincyAbeyie

Qwiss! wrote:
Quincy Abeyie wrote:
If Coombs wants to take away my Playstation I'm not listening to him.

Playstations are personal property, you can keep them. Micropayments would be banned, loot boxes would distributed the noobs who need them most.

😆 I'm sure I could keep my current one, I just don't think they'd exist at all in Coombs's world.

Qwiss

Didn't the commies create tetris?

y va marquer

Qwiss! wrote:
Klaus wrote:
This forum might not be a great place to ask these questions because I get the feeling that a lot of people who post here don't struggle with money and have the kind of jobs that could easily be handled from home with a phone and a laptop, but for a lot of working class people, losing their businesses, jobs and income will end up ruining their lives completely. Mounting debt will bury their children and force them to sell their family homes.

Rumours were going around over here that it might be announced later today that construction would start back next week. All my friends who work on sites and in supply shops don't want it, they want to stay home for another while. In fact the people I hear who don't like the lock down are middle class office types who don't like working from home or people who own their own businesses.

Construction not starting back until the 18th - in terms of coronavirus, unless your friends work for some cowboy construction outfit, they will be far safer than anyone working in a supermarket or meat plant.

The BAMs of this world cannot afford to be in any way lax in relation to H&S, and they're not.
The only middle class types that I know clamouring to get back into poorly ventilated air conditioned offices, are male, under 35 and completely ill equipped to deal with the anxiety caused by uncertainty.
Work is their distraction from contemplating their own powerlessness and mortality.

I know first hand that management in multiple plants are in the horrors in relation to having excess non-essential (physically) people rocking up on the 18th.
Active measures are being taken to restrict numbers to people who are physically required to be present to perform their jobs.
Canteen seating, services, layout traffic flow walking routes etc have been completely overhauled to ensure people do not come into 2m contact.

A substantial number of businesses here require office employees to submit risk assessment and permit requests to even come on site for a few hours.

lorddulaarsenal

If it weren’t for Tik Tok gawd knows how I’d be gettin through el locko

Claudius

Joburg opened up a daily 3 hour window for exercise yesterday. Was good to get out and get fresh air. Went for a walk on an 8k running route. Was great until I got back on my street an there were people walking and running everywhere, basically brushing against each other. The government had ordered people to wear masks of face a fine but most hadn’t bothered. To Y Va’s point, anxiety-inducing. I can only imagine what offices and factories will feel like even if they’re a third full at first. The loss in productivity because you’re preoccupied with your vulnerability and ability to compromise your loved ones will be severe

Qwiss

y va marquer wrote:
Qwiss! wrote:
Rumours were going around over here that it might be announced later today that construction would start back next week. All my friends who work on sites and in supply shops don't want it, they want to stay home for another while. In fact the people I hear who don't like the lock down are middle class office types who don't like working from home or people who own their own businesses.

Construction not starting back until the 18th - in terms of coronavirus, unless your friends work for some cowboy construction outfit, they will be far safer than anyone working in a supermarket or meat plant.

Now idea how meat plants are but sites were the exact same until they were shut down. I know there'll be new rules now, I've another friend working H&S and he's done the exact course for that. Big sites are usually good for adhering to the rules but small sites wont. I laboured on sites for years and I know first hand what its like. I've a friend in Chadwicks too and he's dreading going back because most builders are so cavalier about it. I think the only thing that would work on sites is to limit the number allowed on site at any time, is that part of the new rules do you know?

Anyway I'm glad they've pushed back lifting restrictions for another couple of weeks. Until they've got the testing and contact tracing ready there is no point in letting people back to work.

y va marquer

Qwiss! wrote:
y va marquer wrote:
Construction not starting back until the 18th - in terms of coronavirus, unless your friends work for some cowboy construction outfit, they will be far safer than anyone working in a supermarket or meat plant.

Now idea how meat plants are but sites were the exact same until they were shut down. I know there'll be new rules now, I've another friend working H&S and he's done the exact course for that. Big sites are usually good for adhering to the rules but small sites wont. I laboured on sites for years and I know first hand what its like. I've a friend in Chadwicks too and he's dreading going back because most builders are so cavalier about it. I think the only thing that would work on sites is to limit the number allowed on site at any time, is that part of the new rules do you know?

Anyway I'm glad they've pushed back lifting restrictions for another couple of weeks. Until they've got the testing and contact tracing ready there is no point in letting people back to work.

I think the majority of businesses had not woken up to the severity of the measures that has to be implemented to keep people distant and premises sanitized.
The last week that I was at work was a nightmare.

Since March though there has been a complete overhaul, they have been proactive with many of the measures and to be fair to them they take constant feedback, and initially criticism and work with the lads on the ground to sort it.
They have to, it's in their interests to do so but I think it has always been a part of the culture of the place anyway.

Huge focus on numbers on site, daily reviews and monitoring by senior management, numbers decided by the massively reduced capacity in any space that needs to be shared. Even down to how people walk in corridors and walkways etc is policed.
At an individual level there are people who just don't get it or don't care but there has been a targetted campaign to "empower" people to request people step out of their space. That's actually the tough part, some people get really stressed at having to do that.

Like you say though it's the smaller operators that could be dodgy, it's a huge culture shift for many of them.

y va marquer

I just noticed this is the "passing the time" thread, as opposed to the coronavirus proper thread.

I've had some great city walks, found and seen places that I didn't know existed.
I've installed a beach chair in the bay window in my living room, and as we're three floors up, high on a hill I can see all the way out the harbour to the east and along the river to the cathedral in the west. I spend hours there just chilling.
I actually love working from home, I hoping to make it a permanent arrangement.

Coombs

Qwiss! wrote:
Didn't the commies create tetris?

Fucking bureaucrats. :ffs:

Just for the record, not addressed at qs, I am interested in "moving the needle." I work on it every day. I also work on changing my own assumptions about what "the world" is and allow myself to envision something else, because it turns out it's possible to do both.

I also have no interest in seeing any communist nations, mostly because I have no interest in nations.

Claudius

so we are going to tear down borders?

Coombs

yes, I genuinely believe we will. I just hope it's for the right reasons.

Claudius

we can't even manage economic union. we are constantly in conflict, either in conquest or isolation. it. would be wonderful to see us rise above these forces and embrace each other but I do not foresee it in our lifetimes.

Coombs

I wouldn't be so sure. everything feels so permanent until it changes. borders will move, nations will form and collapse, whether through war or finance. we should be preempting this with the embrassement you refer to, rather that trying to preserve what is 100% doomed to fail.

arsedocmd

Mirth

Coronavirus has seen significant improvements in Dutch customer service

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