#Coronavirus: Page 55 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

#Coronavirus

Kel Varnsen

Meatwad wrote:
KingslandBarge wrote:
It would be quite sinister if the GOP, currently privy to the administration's potential prioritization of the economy sooner than later, are drafting hypotheticals and opinions to placate the population of many more deaths to come.

the crowd that screamed death panels with regards to the affordable care act is now a death cult.

https://newrepublic.com/article/157052/donald-trump-economic-nihilism

[size=medium][font=lava, Georgia, serif]Set aside for the moment that, statistically speaking, people like Kelly are calling for others to die and not themselves. Set aside the moral bankruptcy of American conservatives who have spent decades lecturing the country about abortion rights, stem-cell research, and right-to-die laws, only to demand our elders be sacrificed for a few points on the Dow Jones Industrial Average. [/font][/size]

Although the debate seem a bit extreme in the US, these are issues that are being discussed everywhere. For instance, how much money is a life worth? In Norway, the average value of a human life is set by public health officials to ca. £3 mill - this varies along health status and age. If the treatment cost more than that, on average, then it is usually denied. Another question is which measures are actually effective, and which measures are really just for show to calm a scared public? WHO expert Bruce Wyland recently said that shutting down countries, like Norway and Denmark are doing, is ineffective and will just end up severely damaging the economy.

https://pov.international/who-virusekspert-bruce-aylward-hvorfor-dog-lukke-samfund-ned/?fbclid=IwAR29wriMJoAnP9qP0JPF4cD9R2Wz-3AYE3Ov2WMk8O4srS0_MhgPk5HoZ6M

Mirth

The Coronavirus bill has quietly been rushed through and given royal ascent today, after just two days of debate and is now law. This includes:

The police to detain people suspected of having coronavirus and send them for testing. People who fail to do so could be fined up to £1,000.

Powers for ministers to 'prohibit or restrict events and gatherings, and to close premises, if the public health situation deems it necessary'

Powers for ministers to write to an operator of a UK port requiring their operation be suspended

Police and immigration officers will be given new powers to enable them to detain people if they are believed to be a risk to public health

Border Force will be able to temporarily suspend operations at airports and transport hubs if there are not enough workers to maintain border security.

Following this, parliament has aburptly shut down and gone on early recess.

On Thursday, Rishi Sunak is set to announce a package of support for self employed workers who willl be affected.

Sounds like they'll be tightening the screws soon.

redwhiteAustrian

Exactly these measures have been taken in Austria too (we're now at 6.000 infected and 35 deaths) and based on recent reports from our government, we're in for at least two more weeks of these restrictions.
I don't think we'll have overcome that one bit by the end of April. This could go way beyond next summer.

Meatwad

Kel Varnsen wrote:
Meatwad wrote:
the crowd that screamed death panels with regards to the affordable care act is now a death cult.

https://newrepublic.com/article/157052/donald-trump-economic-nihilism

Although the debate seem a bit extreme in the US, these are issues that are being discussed everywhere. For instance, how much money is a life worth? In Norway, the average value of a human life is set by public health officials to ca. £3 mill - this varies along health status and age. If the treatment cost more than that, on average, then it is usually denied. Another question is which measures are actually effective, and which measures are really just for show to calm a scared public? WHO expert Bruce Wyland recently said that shutting down countries, like Norway and Denmark are doing, is ineffective and will just end up severely damaging the economy.

https://pov.international/who-virusekspert-bruce-aylward-hvorfor-dog-lukke-samfund-ned/?fbclid=IwAR29wriMJoAnP9qP0JPF4cD9R2Wz-3AYE3Ov2WMk8O4srS0_MhgPk5HoZ6M

well it's the extreme that i find problematic, because i know people are going to die and even in the most perfectly handled situation they would die. but these republicans are basically of the attitude that 80% of people will be fine even if they get covid19, so why should society suffer for the 20% that will either die or be hospitalized. it's only 20%, fuck 'em.

hopefully americans use their $1200 checks and build a guillotine because that's about how much it costs.

arsedocmd

Fascinating

MistaT

Great timing for the photo 😆

goon

Haha. In fairness, I see where she's coming from...

A colleague lost his company credit card and whoever found it started using it. Between us (because I tried calling but got disconnected after an hour and 20 mins on hold) to get it cancelled and replaced it took us 3 hours on the phone.

Trying to work from home and my broadband has started playing up, yesterday it lost connection for 4 hours and today it's been crawling all day. The support line has been shut down and live chat doesn't work.

On top of all of this, I'm trying to stay on top of the kids education while also keeping them occupied.

Yeah, I get that it's utterly insignificant given what's going on, but still. Just a few days into lockdown and I'm already tearing my hair out.

Klaus

"France hoping unorthodox virologist can save the world" - https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/coronavirus-france-hoping-unorthodox-virologist-can-save-world-1.4210278

US president Donald Trump apparently learned of Raoult’s experiment through a Twitter post by the billionaire entrepreneur Elon Musk. On March 20th, Trump wrongly claimed in a White House press briefing that the US Food and Drug Administration had approved what he called “the very powerful” drug chloroquine to treat Covid-19.

Trump was corrected by Dr Anthony Fauci, a top expert on infectious disease and a pillar of the fight against coronavirus. But Trump persisted, tweeting the following day that “HYDROXYCHLOROQUINE & AZITHROMYCIN, taken together, have a real chance to be one of the biggest game changers in the history of medicine.”

Turns out the research is fake and the paper wasn't peer reviewed. It has zero documented effect, and it also turns out that Raoult has a long history of faking research results:

I don't know what's more depressing: the fact that Donald Trump and Elon Musk are literally killing us out of sheer incompetence, or how entirely predictable that sentence was three years ago.

arsedocmd

They're really having the DNR conversations in the hospitals for COVID patients. Phew.

Klaus

Jesus. Everything still alright in Sin City?

goon

Stuff like this must drive you up the wall if your a front line worker:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52052694

arsedocmd

Klaus wrote:
Jesus. Everything still alright in Sin City?

So, I'm working in Michigan right now, made time and picked up a fortnight worth of shifts till the end of this month. About ten days ago, it was one case and everything else the usual. Now they've converted one part of the hospital into a Covid unit. Another one for sicker COVID pts for ICU care. One pt died today- he was a renal transplant and on immunosuppression.
One 21 year old intubated, covid positive but had been into vaping(that thing destroys lungs in a ugly way). I take reassurance in the fact that I haven't seen anyone that's gotten seriously sick who hasn't had underlying immunity screwed up- Ostensibly, it appears that these long standing conditions fundamentally change your body's ability to respond to certain infections and thus, these reactions.
Calls going to smaller town, smaller hospitals from the tertiary care centers in metros to send people that need ventilators- unprecedented, it's usually the other way round.

Anyways, someone sent me this text earlier in the day https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/hospitals-consider-universal-do-not-resuscitate-orders-for-coronavirus-patients/ar-BB11HHB6

And then I heard there was this topic discussed passively in our hospital too. Not sure what to make of it-sounds utterly unethical on the face of it, and wonder how it measures up to Burnsy's necropolitics.

Hearing similar stories from Vegas too. Everyone constantly complaining about a shortage of supplies.

Burnwinter

You can bet your boots no DNR will be applied to anyone with deep enough pockets.

arsedocmd

Here you go Burnsy

Then there is this though..

https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/henry-ford-health-reaches-capacity-at-2-hospitals-for-covid-19-patients

I gotta say though, the proclivity towards drama in this country is fucking unbearable. Whoever thought there was any iota of utility in putting that flyer out to the public. Those sort of decisions happen often already anyways, and even if the triage is going to get accelerated and upgraded---that could be done at the site, on the spot with family etc...Ugh.

MistaT

Mirth wrote:
Anyone know why Japan is doing relatively ok considering they've not enacted any major lockdowns? They could be under reporting as well but you'd think that there would be a massive cluster somewhere considering they were affected very early on.

NY Times speculating it's about to break out in Japan.

[size=medium][font=nyt-imperial, georgia,]Cases in Tokyo spiked this week, setting records for four days running — including an announcement of 47 cases on Thursday — as travelers returned from overseas. The limited testing for the virus has raised fears that many more are going undetected.[/font][/size]

lorddulaarsenal

This thing will do horrid things when it hits third world countries.

Literally can’t see an end to it all.

Kel Varnsen

This is an interesting modelling study. Assuming that about 1% of the population is at risk of hospitalization, and an R0 of 2.25 og 2.75, they find that 36% and 40% respectively of the UK population have already been infected by 19.3.2020.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.24.20042291v1

Should be noted though that other modelling teams have criticized it:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/26/virus-infection-data-coronavirus-modelling

Claudius

@lorddulaarsenal wrote:
This thing will do horrid things when it hits third world countries.

Literally can’t see an end to it all.

Do you ever look at the world map that shows infections? South Asian and African countries are barely even able to track infections. Only South Africa is doing a half decent job of contact tracing and even then they’re up to 1000 known infections (and most of those appear to be in higher income areas of the country). Covid will wreak havoc and these countries won’t have an international community to turn to.

I’ve been watching Botswana. Despite around 1000 tests, they haven’t picked up any infections yet. They’re ready to go on lockdown in the coming days. You almost wonder when the right time to go on lockdown is. Do you assume you have infections because all neighboring countries have them, and go on lockdown, or do you wait til you record a few and then go on lockdown. You can’t half-step like Trump. A lockdown needs to be absolute. You need to be like South Africa. We went on lockdown yesterday and they were arresting rich folk who went cycling and swimming early this morning. No deviations can be allowed, so you need to pick your 3 to 4 weeks properly so as not exhaust people.

Kel Varnsen

Claudius wrote:
@lorddulaarsenal wrote:
This thing will do horrid things when it hits third world countries.

Literally can’t see an end to it all.

Do you ever look at the world map that shows infections? South Asian and African countries are barely even able to track infections. Only South Africa is doing a half decent job of contact tracing and even then they’re up to 1000 known infections (and most of those appear to be in higher income areas of the country). Covid will wreak havoc and these countries won’t have an international community to turn to.

I’ve been watching Botswana. Despite around 1000 tests, they haven’t picked up any infections yet. They’re ready to go on lockdown in the coming days. You almost wonder when the right time to go on lockdown is. Do you assume you have infections because all neighboring countries have them, and go on lockdown, or do you wait til you record a few and then go on lockdown. You can’t half-step like Trump. A lockdown needs to be absolute. You need to be like South Africa. We went on lockdown yesterday and they were arresting rich folk who went cycling and swimming early this morning. No deviations can be allowed, so you need to pick your 3 to 4 weeks properly so as not exhaust people.

A short term lockdown (3-4 weeks) will probably have little to no effect in the long term. According to the Imperial College study (and most public health institutes across Europe), a short term suppression strategy will only lead to a massive transmission rebound once the measures are lifted. The reason is that most of the population will still be susceptible to the virus, and only a few independent infected cases is enough to start a new wave of infections. So the suppression strategy (i.e. lockdown) will have to be in place until a vaccine is ready. It is not a viable long term strategy.

Claudius

So it’s a long term lockdown or Trump’s business as usual then? Logically it makes sense. Because all you are doing is reducing the initial wave. But as you come out, no dynamics have changed. You still have the same basic ingredients, so the virus should grow in the same way. If anything, it will just buy you time for medical preparedness.

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