Autumn tran!: Page 28 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Autumn tran!

mentalvortex

Clrnc wrote:
ohboy!!! wrote:
The only way Coutinho signs for us is through a dodgy deal.

Apparently Barca want rid of Dembele for under £40mill

https://www.espn.com/soccer/soccer-transfers/story/4099892/barcelona-under-pressure-to-sell-players-before-june-to-balance-accounts-sources

That's because they are in serious trouble. They are even offering one of their more important players Arthur to major clubs this few weeks. We should snap him up if we ever have a chance

Arthur also has raised question marks at Barca because his off field activities.

Just like a lot of his countrymen he is known to be big time party boy leading to missed training sessions and such.

Claudius

we should get in there. grab them by the cojones. take De Jong. pay back for a decade and a half of pain

goon

Klaus wrote:
Rubbish. I've watched the Championship this season and there isn't one player outside Leeds that would even be good enough for Norwich. And Leeds aren't that good either, it's mainly Philips and White and maybe one or two others that would have a chance at the Premier League midtable.

The best playmaker I saw all season was Emile Smith-Rowe, and that says everything. Not because Smith-Rowe isn't promising, but the fact that he can go from our reserves to the Championship and play 10 games and look like Messi compared to the rest of the league tells you all you need to know.

Yeah. Ozil struggles for us because it's a highly skilled, highly demanding position, not because he's rubbish. There's a long list of really good players who've struggled in the advanced playmaker role in the PL.

We need to make the role less demanding, either by changing the shape or by adding more creativity further back.

jones

mentalvortex wrote:
Clrnc wrote:
https://www.espn.com/soccer/soccer-transfers/story/4099892/barcelona-under-pressure-to-sell-players-before-june-to-balance-accounts-sources

That's because they are in serious trouble. They are even offering one of their more important players Arthur to major clubs this few weeks. We should snap him up if we ever have a chance

Arthur also has raised question marks at Barca because his off field activities.

Just like a lot of his countrymen he is known to be big time party boy leading to missed training sessions and such.

We can't miss out on all them Brazilians just because they love to party, that one time he caught gonorrhoea or what it was was during an international break so all good. Besides we also had Bendtner on our books who got some princess pregnant and ruined the Swedish royal bloodline forever in the process so not like we're strangers to these dealings.

Clrnc

goon wrote:
Klaus wrote:
Rubbish. I've watched the Championship this season and there isn't one player outside Leeds that would even be good enough for Norwich. And Leeds aren't that good either, it's mainly Philips and White and maybe one or two others that would have a chance at the Premier League midtable.

The best playmaker I saw all season was Emile Smith-Rowe, and that says everything. Not because Smith-Rowe isn't promising, but the fact that he can go from our reserves to the Championship and play 10 games and look like Messi compared to the rest of the league tells you all you need to know.

Yeah. Ozil struggles for us because it's a highly skilled, highly demanding position, not because he's rubbish. There's a long list of really good players who've struggled in the advanced playmaker role in the PL.

We need to make the role less demanding, either by changing the shape or by adding more creativity further back.

So our 350k per week man have no impact for the past 2 plus years after signing the new contract because his natural role is suddenly too demanding for him? We have gone from blaming strikers, players around him, manager, physicality of the league to now the shape of the team or creativity behind him 😆

The supposedly highly skilled position hasn't stopped the rest of the playmakers in the league to perform.

flobaba

The excuses we continue to make up for Ozil are ridiculous at this point.

Just admit that the guy is washed up and there are loads of players out there championship and otherwise who would give us much, much better than he does in his role, or similar.

flobaba

Again we are talking about 1 goal and 2 assists in over 20 games. Highly skilled, highly demanding position my boots.

Klaus

What's ironic is that Özil was actually decent under Arteta until the season halted. Nowhere near the kind of performances he regularly put in 2 years ago, but within the context of of this squad he was doing alright.

I think Arteta's football is a bit rigid and doesn't allow much room for the attacking game - it feels worryingly similar to Emery's in that aspect - but that's neither here nor there really. Like goon says though we have a creative issue that goes beyond one player, whom, slowing down or not, we still look worse off without.

lorddulaarsenal

Not sure we can draw too many conclusions from what we’ve seen under Arteta thus far.

Bring Back Kerrea Gilbert

Hopefully our possession and attack patterns are worked on a tonne during this extended, uninterrupted training session until the league recommences in a few weeks.

I'll be very disappointed if we're still so rigid.

BWoolley

I suspect we will be even more rigid since the players are literally training separately and they are probably as focused on their health as on tactical patterns. I wouldn't be surprised if the initial few performances are entirely turgid.

goon

Clrnc wrote:
goon wrote:
Yeah. Ozil struggles for us because it's a highly skilled, highly demanding position, not because he's rubbish. There's a long list of really good players who've struggled in the advanced playmaker role in the PL.

We need to make the role less demanding, either by changing the shape or by adding more creativity further back.

So our 350k per week man have no impact for the past 2 plus years after signing the new contract because his natural role is suddenly too demanding for him? We have gone from blaming strikers, players around him, manager, physicality of the league to now the shape of the team or creativity behind him 😆

The supposedly highly skilled position hasn't stopped the rest of the playmakers in the league to perform.

flobaba wrote:
The excuses we continue to make up for Ozil are ridiculous at this point.

Just admit that the guy is washed up and there are loads of players out there championship and otherwise who would give us much, much better than he does in his role, or similar.

flobaba wrote:
Again we are talking about 1 goal and 2 assists in over 20 games. Highly skilled, highly demanding position my boots.

Lol. I love how quickly people flip out the moment they think anyone is defending Ozil.

Not once in my post do I suggest he's not past it or suggest that we should stick with him. But the idea that you can pluck someone from Wanstead Flats who will perform better than Ozil is pure fantasy. And I love that you guys got so worked up that suddenly the No.10 role for a top club isn't all that hard, as if that's a remotely rational opinion.

The point is we either need to replace Ozil with top class talent rather than Bristol City's No.10, or we need to change systems to one that doesn't put so much onus on one specialised position so that we can aim lower in the market or use guys like Willock and ESR.

jones

You also said the reason he struggles is because the position is demanding, not because he's rubbish. That's disingenious at best, three to four years ago he used to put in class performances from #10 and now that he's not it's because of the position.

goon

3-4 years ago he was one of the best players in the planet in that position, hence he could do it justice. But the moment his level dropped he’s looked utterly pointless.

It could be that he’s completely forgotten how to play football and is now rubbish, or what’s more likely in my view is that the nature of the role means that unless you’re top class you’re going to look out of your depth.

speedy

His first touch is horrific compaired to his best. And that's nothing to do with anything outside him. He's just going through the motions. Either it's mental illness or just unwillingness to graft in training everyday who knows? I'd guess a bit of both.

When our season drops he hides for a month or two. I doubt he's at home feeling great it's more likely hes mentally fucked and the extra burden finishes him off.

I'd say theirs a good few players mentally struggling but many can just get on with like Ekne managed to do for a long time or even Lampard when his mam died played the next day and put in a great performance and scored a goal. Every condition is going to have a different effect on whoever has it. You only have to look at the recent example of corona virus to see the broad range of different experiences different people have with the same condition.

His lashing out at china and hanging around with an extremist seems more in keeping with someone who's down and seeing the darkness in the world. Rather than someone who's happy and involved/focus on their own life.

Clrnc

goon wrote:
The point is we either need to replace Ozil with top class talent rather than Bristol City's No.10, or we need to change systems to one that doesn't put so much onus on one specialised position so that we can aim lower in the market or use guys like Willock and ESR.

Yeah I literally said anyone can be better and more effective than Ozil right now, that doesn't mean we should sign them.

That said, there are really gems in the lower division. 2 years ago if someone told you James Maddison is class for a Norwich team that is struggling to stay up in the championship everyone would laugh. From his first appearance after Leicester bought him, he has performed at a much higher level than Mesut.

Ricky1985

Except that one game, coincidentally against Leicester, in which Özil played one of the best 45 minutes I've seen from anyone, anywhere in the past few seasons. Maddison will play for another 15 years and not produce a single performance 1/10th as good as Özil's that night or come close to the level the German maintained for nearly 10 years or so before that.

And I like Maddison, but I'm with Goon. Playing 10 for a top team is the hardest position by far, playing 10 for a pseudo-top team that is still judged by the standards of one is even harder. Only a very few are worthy of that integral role, in my opinion. Özil was more than worthy for a long time, but it is absolutely true that we surrounded him with lots of average footballers. It is also true that Özil has deteriorated in the past 2 years and is now a shadow of his former self and is no longer good enough to be so integral to a team that has aspirations of playing Champions League football.

If we're going to play with a 10 though, post-Özil, he better be the best player in our team, otherwise don't bother.

QuincyAbeyie

1/10th is some massive hyperbole and it says a lot that even when trying to pick out a great Özil performance of the past few seasons you had to choose half a match. But I agree that we shouldn't bother with a 10, a three-man midfield is much easier to accommodate.

Ricky1985

Of course 1/10th isn't precise, but I stand by the point I made: Özil was very special, and very few around today in that position, if any, are fit to lace 2010-18 Özil's boots.

Maddison is a better, more consistent performer than Özil now, but he might not find it so easy in a team that has far greater expectations, faces packed defences often and has a horribly unbalanced team around him, unsuited to the his own strengths and style; such is the story of most of Özil's 7 years at Arsenal. And he has still been mostly brilliant until the past 2 years.

ohboy

Ricky1985 wrote:
Of course 1/10th isn't precise, but I stand by the point I made: Özil was very special, and very few around today in that position, if any, are fit to lace 2010-18 Özil's boots.

Maddison is a better, more consistent performer than Özil now, but he might not find it so easy in a team that has far greater expectations, faces packed defences often and has a horribly unbalanced team around him, unsuited to the his own strengths and style; such is the story of most of Özil's 7 years at Arsenal. And he has still been mostly brilliant until the past 2 years.

It is a fair point regarding packed defences.

Playing for Arsenal as a #10 is far different than for Leicester, who are still by and large a counter attack team.

The fact we never surrounded Ozil with wingers and had proper width in the team, is something that still makes me angry in disbelief. In hindsight, we shouldn’t have bothered signing him, based on how Wenger constructed the team.

Anyway, I am optimistic about the future, as we have some very interesting prospects, money is the big issue now.

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