Pepe needs serious coaching. His transitions and decision making needs to be indoctrinated into him. Like jujitsu. When the ball is with your fullback in this position and the defender is at this position, this is what you do. No need to think about it. He can still be an asset, and has that wildcard quality about him, but the premiership has obviously been a huge step up for him.

Klaus wrote:

Claudius wrote:

we need to give him his chance to play. 
if he cannot play AND we are backing Arteta, we need to cut him lose and bring in other players

You're the one saying we need depth, right? I think Pepe is good depth; certainly compared to Willian. I'd have Saka and Martinelli ahead of him on either flank personally, but they can't and shouldn't play all the time. Competition for squad places is a fundamentally good thing.

Saka, Marty, Pepe and Nelson is a much better set of wide players than Auba and Willian. We need to undo a lot of things that Arteta and Edu have done when it comes to overloading the squad with the old and useless (and this is one of the main reasons why they both still need to leave as soon as possible, before they can do more damage), but I wouldn't count Pepe among those even though he frustrates the hell out of me sometimes.

Err. Read my posts. I never talk about depth. I talk about the exact opposite. I always say the most important thing is your top 11 players. Everything else is immaterial. If you don't have a core like Henry, Pires, Campbell, Vieira, Ljungberg that you can depend on to dominate every single opponent, it doesn't matter who your 14th player is. Completely immaterial. 

There was a stat recently that what's commonly accepted as the Invincibles XI only ever played five-six games together. There was another stat about how Alex Ferguson never started the same team twice in 200+ games. I recently rewatched the 5-1 Inter game, and we arrived at San Siro with Cygan, Parlour, Edu and Kanu in the starting eleven. Three bit players and a backup striker who, for the entirety of the 2000s, was as useful as Yaya Sanogo. We also had the best player in the world on that day, and that's what made the difference in the scoreline, but the lack of depth is why we never won Champions League despite being the best in Europe.

Teams so rarely start a full eleven that you have to have a full squad, especially nowadays when the game is more demanding and there are more cups than ever. This is how Ferguson won half of his trophies. His teams were rarely as good as Wenger's in terms of extreme end quality but he had unlimited pockets and paid millions to class players who were willing to sit on the bench for a paycheck.

Even clubs like Liverpool have players like Matip as backup for gomez and van Dijk, Keita and Chamberlain in midfield and Jota in attack (or Firmino if you consider Jota the starter).

You need 17 players who are good enough and Klaus is right, you need 4 wingers. The 4 he lists are all young, all have future upside if we get the attack working together.

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

Even clubs like Liverpool have players like Matip as backup for gomez and van Dijk, Keita and Chamberlain in midfield and Jota in attack (or Firmino if you consider Jota the starter).

Please tell me all about all the great work that Keita, Chamberlain and Matip have done in the last 2 years of winning the Champions League and Premier League. 

The most important thing at Liverpool is Allison, Van Dijk, Robertson, TAA, Fabinho, Firmino, Salah and Mané. Beyond those 8 players, you can pretty much play anyone. Look at who they have been fielding in the recent games they have been winning. They've had some of their kids and back-ups in there. If you don't have your game-winning core right, it doesn't matter what else you do. We overemphasise depth and need to move away from that thinking to getting match-winners. The league is full of good to very good players. Having a concentration of elite players is what will consistently set you apart. 

They're not there to do all the great work, they're there so the entire team doesn't break down when van Dijk is out for a year.

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

They're not there to do all the great work, they're there so the entire team doesn't break down when van Dijk is out for a year.

I'm not sure you are understanding what I am saying. 
I am saying if your systems are functioning properly, and you are scouting well, and you have a bag of money, spend most of that money on the starting line-up. E.g., if you need to get 25 players and have $100m, spend $70m of that on your first 11, all things being equal. You still need the other 14 players, but you don't need to spend anywhere near as much per player. 

Claudius wrote:

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

Even clubs like Liverpool have players like Matip as backup for gomez and van Dijk, Keita and Chamberlain in midfield and Jota in attack (or Firmino if you consider Jota the starter).

Please tell me all about all the great work that Keita, Chamberlain and Matip have done in the last 2 years of winning the Champions League and Premier League. 

The most important thing at Liverpool is Allison, Van Dijk, Robertson, TAA, Fabinho, Firmino, Salah and Mané. Beyond those 8 players, you can pretty much play anyone. Look at who they have been fielding in the recent games they have been winning. They've had some of their kids and back-ups in there. If you don't have your game-winning core right, it doesn't matter what else you do. We overemphasise depth and need to move away from that thinking to getting match-winners. The league is full of good to very good players. Having a concentration of elite players is what will consistently set you apart. 

But using you're logic, Liverpool should sell Keita, Chamberlain and Matip at any cost, and they definitely shouldn't have bought Jota to fulfil a squad role.

Either way, the crux of this comes down to Pepe's value. If we could sell him for £70m or even £50, most here would probably take it. If all you're getting is £20m, what's the point? His goals and assists, even as just a squad player, are worth more than that.

@Claude Of course not, but the market for Pepe is probably at an all-time low. Selling him probably wouldn't give you much, if anything, to spare when you consider that you have to buy a new replacement that's capable. We're pretty much guaranteed to get less than he's worth.

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

@Claude Of course not, but the market for Pepe is probably at an all-time low. Selling him probably wouldn't give you much, if anything, to spare when you consider that you have to buy a new replacement that's capable. We're pretty much guaranteed to get less than he's worth.

it actually doesn't really matter what level the market is. are you guys speculators? if the market is down, it will be down for both sales and purchases. if you need to replace players on your team, then you should do so. 

the important things here are 

• have a squad plan with positional attributes 
• make sure all your purchases are aligned to the squad plan 
• trade players to ensure you remain aligned to squad plan  
• do not fall into sunk cost fallacy traps - stick to the plan to improve team. 

We're not talking about the general market, though it is also relevant, it's the market for Pepe.

Look at Tottenham with Dele Alli, or us with Torreira, two players who are talented and the best we could manage is a loan. Spurs couldn't even manage that. So unless you're going to sign another first XI player for a loan fee, chances are it's not worth selling. I'd also suggest that the top tier players haven't become cheaper in the COVID market, they're just not moving.

If we can get £30mill for Pepe, get rid and give Nelson his game time instead.

Sell Auba and Lacazette while were at it, and just throw everything at a new striker.

Klaus wrote:

There was a stat recently that what's commonly accepted as the Invincibles XI only ever played five-six games together. There was another stat about how Alex Ferguson never started the same team twice in 200+ games. I recently rewatched the 5-1 Inter game, and we arrived at San Siro with Cygan, Parlour, Edu and Kanu in the starting eleven. Three bit players and a backup striker who, for the entirety of the 2000s, was as useful as Yaya Sanogo. We also had the best player in the world on that day, and that's what made the difference in the scoreline, but the lack of depth is why we never won Champions League despite being the best in Europe.

Teams so rarely start a full eleven that you have to have a full squad, especially nowadays when the game is more demanding and there are more cups than ever. This is how Ferguson won half of his trophies. His teams were rarely as good as Wenger's in terms of extreme end quality but he had unlimited pockets and paid millions to class players who were willing to sit on the bench for a paycheck.

Spot on.

The problem we got is, we have maybe 4-5 players who could be part of the solution, where do we get the other 10-12 players?

I know it is unpopular, but if we were to land another CB in January I wouldn’t complain, but this is where the idiotic decision to renew Luiz just complicates things.

Also is Arteta the man 

goon wrote:

We're not talking about the general market, though it is also relevant, it's the market for Pepe.

Look at Tottenham with Dele Alli, or us with Torreira, two players who are talented and the best we could manage is a loan. Spurs couldn't even manage that. So unless you're going to sign another first XI player for a loan fee, chances are it's not worth selling. I'd also suggest that the top tier players haven't become cheaper in the COVID market, they're just not moving.

Clearly the market tanked last summer like the entire global economy, but the whole global economy is forecast to expand in 2021. I expect football to follow suit. By next summer, football teams will have better sense of their economic outlook. 

The market tanking scenario is one where you take a very dim view and take the following hypothesis: the top division football market is very much like cinema. Covid has altered consumer habits irrevocably and most supporters will prefer to watch football at home going forward, leaving stadiums empty.

I don't buy that hypothesis. I think football fully recovers to its prior trajectory within 2 years, and banks will account for that

Klaus wrote:

There was a stat recently that what's commonly accepted as the Invincibles XI only ever played five-six games together. There was another stat about how Alex Ferguson never started the same team twice in 200+ games. I recently rewatched the 5-1 Inter game, and we arrived at San Siro with Cygan, Parlour, Edu and Kanu in the starting eleven. Three bit players and a backup striker who, for the entirety of the 2000s, was as useful as Yaya Sanogo. We also had the best player in the world on that day, and that's what made the difference in the scoreline, but the lack of depth is why we never won Champions League despite being the best in Europe.

Teams so rarely start a full eleven that you have to have a full squad, especially nowadays when the game is more demanding and there are more cups than ever. This is how Ferguson won half of his trophies. His teams were rarely as good as Wenger's in terms of extreme end quality but he had unlimited pockets and paid millions to class players who were willing to sit on the bench for a paycheck.

Spot on.

The problem we got is, we have maybe 4-5 players who could be part of the solution, where do we get the other 10-12 players?

I know it is unpopular, but if we were to land another CB in January I wouldn’t complain, but this is where the idiotic decision to renew Luiz just complicates things.

Also is Arteta the man 

Klaus wrote:

There was a stat recently that what's commonly accepted as the Invincibles XI only ever played five-six games together. There was another stat about how Alex Ferguson never started the same team twice in 200+ games. I recently rewatched the 5-1 Inter game, and we arrived at San Siro with Cygan, Parlour, Edu and Kanu in the starting eleven. Three bit players and a backup striker who, for the entirety of the 2000s, was as useful as Yaya Sanogo. We also had the best player in the world on that day, and that's what made the difference in the scoreline, but the lack of depth is why we never won Champions League despite being the best in Europe.

Teams so rarely start a full eleven that you have to have a full squad, especially nowadays when the game is more demanding and there are more cups than ever. This is how Ferguson won half of his trophies. His teams were rarely as good as Wenger's in terms of extreme end quality but he had unlimited pockets and paid millions to class players who were willing to sit on the bench for a paycheck.

 Great post.

The problem is, we realistically have 4-5 players who may be part of the answer, but where do we get the other 10-12 players?

I know it is an unpopular view, but if you were to offer me another top CB, I would take it now. The more spine players we get, the better. 

This also raises another issue, is Arteta the man to develop those players? I really like who he and Edu identified in the summer (apart from Willian), but do we entrust this process to him?

ohboy!!! wrote:

Klaus wrote:

There was a stat recently that what's commonly accepted as the Invincibles XI only ever played five-six games together. There was another stat about how Alex Ferguson never started the same team twice in 200+ games. I recently rewatched the 5-1 Inter game, and we arrived at San Siro with Cygan, Parlour, Edu and Kanu in the starting eleven. Three bit players and a backup striker who, for the entirety of the 2000s, was as useful as Yaya Sanogo. We also had the best player in the world on that day, and that's what made the difference in the scoreline, but the lack of depth is why we never won Champions League despite being the best in Europe.

Teams so rarely start a full eleven that you have to have a full squad, especially nowadays when the game is more demanding and there are more cups than ever. This is how Ferguson won half of his trophies. His teams were rarely as good as Wenger's in terms of extreme end quality but he had unlimited pockets and paid millions to class players who were willing to sit on the bench for a paycheck.

 Great post.

The problem is, we realistically have 4-5 players who may be part of the answer, but where do we get the other 10-12 players?

I know it is an unpopular view, but if you were to offer me another top CB, I would take it now. The more spine players we get, the better. 

This also raises another issue, is Arteta the man to develop those players? I really like who he and Edu identified in the summer (apart from Willian), but do we entrust this process to him?

While the idea of an 11 is not actually real - the football schedule is too tough for you to send out the same 11 players day-in and day-out, what really matters is having difference makers. You don't really think about the difference that Reyes, Cygan, Clichy and Wiltord made on that squad. But you remember all the immense contributions made by the guys like Henry in his 37 league games, or Pires, Campbell, etc. That team is only special because of the first 5 or 6 players, not the next 10. You want to focus on strength at the top. This is why our recruiting efforts have to be on (potential) superstars as much as possible.

And Wenger understood that more than anyone, hence his super super class comment. I'm sure many transfers were imposed on him and we would have spent even less money if he had his way.