I think you really have to question the entire structure at this club when you consider they offered Mustafi a new contract.
I said Mustafi at 35m is one of our worst signings ever when he signed and every more game he has played only went on to prove that. That alone leads to alot of question of our coach and his colleague
No more Spanish managers please.
GooneriC wrote:No more Spanish managers please.
Facht.
For me what is happening now is not such a surprise in terms of their was such a risk in appointing an inexperienced manager who you have no actual data to judge what they are about. It's a reckless decision because the chance of someone of that profile getting the needed performance first time is so rare it doesn't really happen. So putting your faith in essentially winning that lottery is a pretty mad decision for any club but certainly one with the circumstances we have found ourselves in it is a really poor decision.
There are issues all over the club so the last thing you want is another destabilising variable in a manager of unknown quality.
The arguments for him have focused on people speaking well of his time as a coach at city and that he speaks well in interviews none of which is relevant to actually being a manager. In the only evidence we have of his year in charge he's clearly a long way from the required level right now.
That doesn't mean hours career is over just like other managers he may need a number of Jobs to refine his style it rarely comes right first time.
awooga83 wrote:For me what is happening now is not such a surprise in terms of their was such a risk in appointing an inexperienced manager who you have no actual data to judge what they are about. It's a reckless decision because the chance of someone of that profile getting the needed performance first time is so rare it doesn't really happen. So putting your faith in essentially winning that lottery is a pretty mad decision for any club but certainly one with the circumstances we have found ourselves in it is a really poor decision.
There are issues all over the club so the last thing you want is another destabilising variable in a manager of unknown quality.
The arguments for him have focused on people speaking well of his time as a coach at city and that he speaks well in interviews none of which is relevant to actually being a manager. In the only evidence we have of his year in charge he's clearly a long way from the required level right now.
That doesn't mean hours career is over just like other managers he may need a number of Jobs to refine his style it rarely comes right first time.
Nobody could have expected he would be as bad as a coach as he is though. I am not going to blame anyone who made the decision to hire him, it just didn't work out, fair enough. However, enough is enough, Arteta is just awful at a job and needs to be replaced.
swider wrote:awooga83 wrote:For me what is happening now is not such a surprise in terms of their was such a risk in appointing an inexperienced manager who you have no actual data to judge what they are about. It's a reckless decision because the chance of someone of that profile getting the needed performance first time is so rare it doesn't really happen. So putting your faith in essentially winning that lottery is a pretty mad decision for any club but certainly one with the circumstances we have found ourselves in it is a really poor decision.
There are issues all over the club so the last thing you want is another destabilising variable in a manager of unknown quality.
The arguments for him have focused on people speaking well of his time as a coach at city and that he speaks well in interviews none of which is relevant to actually being a manager. In the only evidence we have of his year in charge he's clearly a long way from the required level right now.
That doesn't mean hours career is over just like other managers he may need a number of Jobs to refine his style it rarely comes right first time.
Nobody could have expected he would be as bad as a coach as he is though. I am not going to blame anyone who made the decision to hire him, it just didn't work out, fair enough. However, enough is enough, Arteta is just awful at a job and needs to be replaced.
No. That was a high but totally senseless gamble. There were very good candidates available. We could have hired an experienced guy like Allegri or an up-and-coming coach like Hasenhüttl with at least some first degree experience.
Arsenal is a top club of England. Taking a newbie coach was astonishing and we are just starting to notice the consequences.
We saw how Arteta pushed Partey back onto the field against Spurs when he was injured. Today, Martinelli was in tears after having been out for 7 months. What do we do, send him back out for the second half. He should’ve gone straight out for scans at half time and Balogun should’ve come in. How important is this result versus securing this boys health over the next few months / years?
This is what I was talking about before the game when I said while we might view this cup game as relatively meaningless, it is everything for Arteta. And a manager optimizing for the present will potentially make sun-optimal long term decisions. Like why not play ESR a little while longer, or bring Balogun on as soon as Martinelli goes down, etc. incredibly irresponsible short termism that he unfortunately cannot be reprimanded for by the DoF.
AAStyle- wrote:swider wrote:Nobody could have expected he would be as bad as a coach as he is though. I am not going to blame anyone who made the decision to hire him, it just didn't work out, fair enough. However, enough is enough, Arteta is just awful at a job and needs to be replaced.
No. That was a high but totally senseless gamble. There were very good candidates available. We could have hired an experienced guy like Allegri or an up-and-coming coach like Hasenhüttl with at least some first degree experience.
Arsenal is a top club of England. Taking a newbie coach was astonishing and we are just starting to notice the consequences.
He wasn't my first choice either, and in hindsight the decision was extremely stupid. However, everyone believed that he was a great coach and at least good coach was exactly what we needed at the time and still do as the players look clueless on the pitch.
So while I am (kind of) willing to forgive them for taking a chance on Arteta, at the same time I cannot believe the club didn't make the decision of sacking him yet. He is underperforming by any standard and the longer it continues the worst the outcome is for us as a club.
I also understand the frustration of those who were always against appointing him as a coach/manager. I have to admit I wasn't against it, but it is clear to see the decision was bad.
Claudius wrote:We saw how Arteta pushed Partey back onto the field against Spurs when he was injured. Today, Martinelli was in tears after having been out for 7 months. What do we do, send him back out for the second half. He should’ve gone straight out for scans at half time and Balogun should’ve come in. How important is this result versus securing this boys health over the next few months / years?
This is what I was talking about before the game when I said while we might view this cup game as relatively meaningless, it is everything for Arteta. And a manager optimizing for the present will potentially make sun-optimal long term decisions. Like why not play ESR a little while longer, or bring Balogun on as soon as Martinelli goes down, etc. incredibly irresponsible short termism that he unfortunately cannot be reprimanded for by the DoF.
We also saw him benching Martinez in cups last year to give a chance today to the goalkeeper who is clearly out of his depth at any professional level. There were also other red flags along the way, from benching Martinelli after becoming a manager to playing Willian basically week in, week out are two that immediately come to mind.
This bloke is more out of his depth than Rúnarsson is.
The mistake IMO is structural as opposed to the individuals involved.
By this I mean not replacing Sanllehi with another experienced DoF, and then promoting a rookie Head Coach to Manager alongside a similarly inexperienced TD = the blind leading the blind with too much to do in a disfunctional situation.
Kel Varnsen wrote:Arteta is a joke. There is no clear structure in the team, not clear patterns on or off the ball, and half the players don't give a shit. Are we pressing high or low, and according to which "triggers"? Individual players are sprinting towards the ball, while others are dropping off. It's chaos. He has lost it and it's just a matter of time before he's fired.
Exactly. I knew latter era Wengers strengths and weaknesses but at least he had strengths. What is Arteta good at?
Over committing men to defense.
Was lovely having five of them back there, plus El Neny and Ceballos - and at times Laca - ten yards in front.
If you want a guy with PL experience, you do everything you can to prize Rodgers away from Leicester. Can’t think of a better choice with a similar profile. Then you get Rangnick to oversee the process. That’s the dream situation. Get the two novices out of here.
Qwiss! wrote:Kel Varnsen wrote:Arteta is a joke. There is no clear structure in the team, not clear patterns on or off the ball, and half the players don't give a shit. Are we pressing high or low, and according to which "triggers"? Individual players are sprinting towards the ball, while others are dropping off. It's chaos. He has lost it and it's just a matter of time before he's fired.
Exactly. I knew latter era Wengers strengths and weaknesses but at least he had strengths. What is Arteta good at?
Making Pep like him.
This is like when we all say that we want OGS to stay at ManU for 10 years
mdgoonah41 wrote:Ricky1985 wrote:Arteta has specifically said our finishing has not been good enough and needs to improve. But it's also true we have had rotten luck, as usually happens when things go wrong.
I hope reports of the club gutting the squad in January are true. Perhaps I'm alone in this - and that doesn't bother me at all btw because I am pretty stunned how the fanbase has gone after him and seemingly overlooked, or at least minimised, the shit show that is, and has been, Arsenal football club for the past... well, for too damn long - but I have seen more than enough good from Arteta over 12 months to want to see what he could actually do with a proper team, minus the pathetic wasters that make up half of our frankenstein squad.
i just cant buy into this line of thinking.
we are 10 points below fucking southampton in the table. how many points do you think arteta would manage with southampton's squad? west ham, aston villa, newcastle are all above us in the table, with far inferior squads. we have a lot of poor and underperforming players in the squad, but it is the manager's job to maximize what he has and get performances out of players. arteta did that right when he got appointed, but he hasn't done it at all this season. the team has tuned him out, there is no other explanation for it.
the squad needs to be gutted, but if arteta needs a team of 11 perfect footballers to play his brand of football, then his brand of football is a fairy tale. there is enough talent in the first team to finish 6th. the fact that we are scraping the relegation zone is an indictment on his management ability. the answer isnt more of that.
Southampton is a well run club, they use their resources well, and their squad, limited in quality as it may be, is fit for the coach's purpose. Cedric Soares' switch from there to here perfectly illustrates the different approach of both clubs - and obviously does not reflect well on the idiots running ours!
Just saying "is our squad the 15th best in the League? No! So he has to go". Is the sort of unidimensional analysis I didn't think I would see on here. And certainly the line that also crops up about Arteta needing "11 perfect footballers" is an absurd way to look at a squad that has the paltry midfield options we have.
Arteta is struggling with this lot badly. Obviously that is true. But is it because he's suddenly a bad coach or not able to motivate players to play for him? Because that clearly wasn't true for the 6 months prior to this run of terrible results. Could it be that he has a poorly put together squad that are mostly very happy with being overpaid underachievers? Or is it some of both, and if so to what extent? How much of the chaos is due to the turmoil off the pitch caused by the global pandemic that has killed the transfer market and altered the dynamics of top level football to an extent not seen before? How much has the club-created turmoil contributed, driven by the utter ineptitude of those above Arteta that have run the club in the past few years? And that's a long list of decision makers that have added to the chaos and then promptly left the building.
We were incredibly well organised, tactically spot on, exhibited a very, very well coordinated press, had clear and effective attacking patterns, even if they were mostly based around counter-attacking, and the players were clearly putting a lot into every game - that was the case for the overwhelming majority of the first 9 or 10 months of Arteta's time here. I'm not sure what has happened since, and it is slipping away from him for sure, but basking in the glory of a bit of success is hardly new to players that make up most of this squad.
January is pretty much here - big things have to happen. One of the effects of pandemic has been for us to limp through half a season with 10 players on the books that know full well that Arteta doesn't want them here, some of which have been completely ostracised because of their shit attitude too and are no doubt causing big problems - the club need to back the manager and get these players out of the club, give Arteta a chance of moulding and then controlling a squad he actually wants, that is fit for his purpose. And Arteta, for his part, needs to demand exactly that and nothing less from the club. Edu and the board cannot get away with the sort of arrogance we saw from Gazidis and others previously when they patted themselves on the back and pretented paying £70m for Mustafi and Xhaka weren't terrible mistakes that, along with 15 other mistakes, needed immediate and financially painful rectification.
Can you imagine if this was happening in front of full crowds? There are a few reasons why he is still in a job, but that has been a big factor I think.
On The Tuesday Club podcast Alan was musing about our version of This Is Sunderland. That made me laugh and cry at the same time.
on that same podcast he came up with a list of 5 managers. It was terrible. I can't remember who they were, but it included Eddie Howe. Bloody hell. I mean his Bournemouth team played some good football, but I imagine the personalities in the Arsenal squad at the moment would eat him up.
Ricky1985 wrote:mdgoonah41 wrote:i just cant buy into this line of thinking.
we are 10 points below fucking southampton in the table. how many points do you think arteta would manage with southampton's squad? west ham, aston villa, newcastle are all above us in the table, with far inferior squads. we have a lot of poor and underperforming players in the squad, but it is the manager's job to maximize what he has and get performances out of players. arteta did that right when he got appointed, but he hasn't done it at all this season. the team has tuned him out, there is no other explanation for it.
the squad needs to be gutted, but if arteta needs a team of 11 perfect footballers to play his brand of football, then his brand of football is a fairy tale. there is enough talent in the first team to finish 6th. the fact that we are scraping the relegation zone is an indictment on his management ability. the answer isnt more of that.
Southampton is a well run club, they use their resources well, and their squad, limited in quality as it may be, is fit for the coach's purpose. Cedric Soares' switch from there to here perfectly illustrates the different approach of both clubs - and obviously does not reflect well on the idiots running ours!
Just saying "is our squad the 15th best in the League? No! So he has to go". Is the sort of unidimensional analysis I didn't think I would see on here. And certainly the line that also crops up about Arteta needing "11 perfect footballers" is an absurd way to look at a squad that has the paltry midfield options we have.
Arteta is struggling with this lot badly. Obviously that is true. But is it because he's suddenly a bad coach or not able to motivate players to play for him? Because that clearly wasn't true for the 6 months prior to this run of terrible results. Could it be that he has a poorly put together squad that are mostly very happy with being overpaid underachievers? Or is it some of both, and if so to what extent? How much of the chaos is due to the turmoil off the pitch caused by the global pandemic that has killed the transfer market and altered the dynamics of top level football to an extent not seen before? How much has the club-created turmoil contributed, driven by the utter ineptitude of those above Arteta that have run the club in the past few years? And that's a long list of decision makers that have added to the chaos and then promptly left the building.
We were incredibly well organised, tactically spot on, exhibited a very, very well coordinated press, had clear and effective attacking patterns, even if they were mostly based around counter-attacking, and the players were clearly putting a lot into every game - that was the case for the overwhelming majority of the first 9 or 10 months of Arteta's time here. I'm not sure what has happened since, and it is slipping away from him for sure, but basking in the glory of a bit of success is hardly new to players that make up most of this squad.
January is pretty much here - big things have to happen. One of the effects of pandemic has been for us to limp through half a season with 10 players on the books that know full well that Arteta doesn't want them here, some of which have been completely ostracised because of their shit attitude too and are no doubt causing big problems - the club need to back the manager and get these players out of the club, give Arteta a chance of moulding and then controlling a squad he actually wants, that is fit for his purpose. And Arteta, for his part, needs to demand exactly that and nothing less from the club. Edu and the board cannot get away with the sort of arrogance we saw from Gazidis and others previously when they patted themselves on the back and pretented paying £70m for Mustafi and Xhaka weren't terrible mistakes that, along with 15 other mistakes, needed immediate and financially painful rectification.
Holy shit, Rick. This, a thousand times this.
Ricky1985 wrote:mdgoonah41 wrote:i just cant buy into this line of thinking.
we are 10 points below fucking southampton in the table. how many points do you think arteta would manage with southampton's squad? west ham, aston villa, newcastle are all above us in the table, with far inferior squads. we have a lot of poor and underperforming players in the squad, but it is the manager's job to maximize what he has and get performances out of players. arteta did that right when he got appointed, but he hasn't done it at all this season. the team has tuned him out, there is no other explanation for it.
the squad needs to be gutted, but if arteta needs a team of 11 perfect footballers to play his brand of football, then his brand of football is a fairy tale. there is enough talent in the first team to finish 6th. the fact that we are scraping the relegation zone is an indictment on his management ability. the answer isnt more of that.
Southampton is a well run club, they use their resources well, and their squad, limited in quality as it may be, is fit for the coach's purpose. Cedric Soares' switch from there to here perfectly illustrates the different approach of both clubs - and obviously does not reflect well on the idiots running ours!
Just saying "is our squad the 15th best in the League? No! So he has to go". Is the sort of unidimensional analysis I didn't think I would see on here. And certainly the line that also crops up about Arteta needing "11 perfect footballers" is an absurd way to look at a squad that has the paltry midfield options we have.
Arteta is struggling with this lot badly. Obviously that is true. But is it because he's suddenly a bad coach or not able to motivate players to play for him? Because that clearly wasn't true for the 6 months prior to this run of terrible results. Could it be that he has a poorly put together squad that are mostly very happy with being overpaid underachievers? Or is it some of both, and if so to what extent? How much of the chaos is due to the turmoil off the pitch caused by the global pandemic that has killed the transfer market and altered the dynamics of top level football to an extent not seen before? How much has the club-created turmoil contributed, driven by the utter ineptitude of those above Arteta that have run the club in the past few years? And that's a long list of decision makers that have added to the chaos and then promptly left the building.
We were incredibly well organised, tactically spot on, exhibited a very, very well coordinated press, had clear and effective attacking patterns, even if they were mostly based around counter-attacking, and the players were clearly putting a lot into every game - that was the case for the overwhelming majority of the first 9 or 10 months of Arteta's time here. I'm not sure what has happened since, and it is slipping away from him for sure, but basking in the glory of a bit of success is hardly new to players that make up most of this squad.
January is pretty much here - big things have to happen. One of the effects of pandemic has been for us to limp through half a season with 10 players on the books that know full well that Arteta doesn't want them here, some of which have been completely ostracised because of their shit attitude too and are no doubt causing big problems - the club need to back the manager and get these players out of the club, give Arteta a chance of moulding and then controlling a squad he actually wants, that is fit for his purpose. And Arteta, for his part, needs to demand exactly that and nothing less from the club. Edu and the board cannot get away with the sort of arrogance we saw from Gazidis and others previously when they patted themselves on the back and pretented paying £70m for Mustafi and Xhaka weren't terrible mistakes that, along with 15 other mistakes, needed immediate and financially painful rectification.
You talk about big squad turnovers to fix this so can you tell me what you want to see that amount to in practice?
