Burnwinter I think the frustrating aspect for those of us who felt we didn't have enough quality is it wasn't some 6th sense you just looked at their output. Martinelli had a very good breakthrough season and then failed to produce over another 2 seasons and didn't seem to develop his own game. Jesus has had mounting injury problems and had never been consistent goal scorer and again had shown poor returns. Havertz is a functional player but he is not a quality forward that will reliably get you goals

Consistency is everything for being a top player and the majority of our attackers outside Saka have not been able to demonstrate the required level. The other side of that is yeah but they will stay fit or demonstrate the quality from 2 years ago. That's pure hopium and not a serious way to build a squad to make the step up, I think it's is a reckless strategy that doesn't give the team the needed resilience that a season requires.

I think we've needed to address the forwards for at least 18 months but the summer was the red flag we needed to address it then. The fact Arteta didn't suggests major problems with how he approaches squad building either he didn't think it was a problem or he chose to ignore it both of which he has to own. This is all his team and philosophy no more excuses.

I feel we need to win this season or I'd be very much heading to the we need to do something else to get us to win things. I accept I'm going to be early for lots on that but I agree that it can't progress beyond next season if we are still coming up short.

It's funny, isn't it? All managers appear to have their blind spots, Arsene's were towards the back of his team and Mikel's appear to be at the top end.

I was at the game last night and thought, to be honest, that game could very easily have finished 2-0 to us and Newcastle would have had no complaints. Equally, I have to acknowledge that even me, the uber optimist left five minutes before the end as it was clear the team were out of ideas and could still be playing now without having scored.

In contrast, there seemed to be a clarity of purpose, and, more to the point, a cutting edge to the visitors that we can only dream of at present. For me, Martinelli's one on one is the sliding doors moment of the game. Put that away and you might get Newcastle coming out and leaving more lovely green space to run into.

Obviously, he smashes the post, Newcastle scored a few minutes later and a tough game gets infinitely more difficult.

The Havertz miss in the second half defied belief and that Newcastle's second goal came from a rebound felt a bit like sick joke given the amount of blocks Newcastle put in around their own penalty area. But they had the players to take advantage of it. Isak would obviously transform this Arsenal team, but Anthony Gordon would also mark a clear improvement on Martinelli.

I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water because, even with all the mad shit that's happened to us this season, we're still 2nd in the league and, for all the frustration of being behind Liverpool, are still a very good team - even if we don't look it right now. However, even I am at the point where it is clear Arsenal can't achieve anything with this group of forwards. We need a Saka level forward on the other wing and ideally up front - but I'm fucked if I know who that should be.

I think we need to acknowledge the deficiencies of the choices that Arteta has made in our team setup in respect of our attack. Diaz, Jota, Gakpo are not magicians but appear to be so much better in that Liverpool side because of the way they attack rather than their innate eliteness. Arteta has made certain choices that make us better in some ways but worse in an attacking sense (advancing too early, one-paced attack, insane focus on the flanks vs central, etc.). I don't think there is a team in the world (bar RM) that can have 2 Saka's. We of course need better quality upfront (I still don't understand why we bought Havertz) but perhaps also a few slight tweaks to the system. In my view, if Arteta can deliver that over the summer (and I don't see why not since he has been able to slightly tweak his system each season to improve the team), he should stay, if we exhibit the same patterns and deficiencies without the personnel change to adjust for that, he should go.

Qwiss Something went on there, I reckon. The hope is that Arteta was on the smarter side of it. What's undeniable is that until Edu is replaced and his replacement is bedded in, the buck stops with Super Mik.

daredevil but this then does come back to the way we keep spending on defensive reinforcements.

I think I'm possibly the most pro Arteta poster on this forum, but we had a game a couple of weeks back where we had one attacking option on the bench in Ethan Nwaneri - and three left backs. Without wanting to get all Liz Truss about it (nobody needs that), that says, well; a) we've been a little unlucky, but also; b) we have got our squad planning just a little wrong.

Arseblog made the point today that none of our three summer signings even got on the pitch last night, which makes you wonder what the point of them all were.

RocktheCasbah but Anthony Gordon would also mark a clear improvement on Martinelli.

I'd take Gordon over almost any left winger we've been linked to. He takes responsibility in a way few others do. Think he'd be perfect in Artetas system too.

That said he's got the same number of goals as Martinelli this season and in more minutes. This is why the LW spot is so hard to upgrade. Newcastle would want over £100m for him.

I would too. Difficult argument to make based on output and also mentality, as Martinelli is no shirker, but I like Gordon and like that he’s got an edge. He’s a bit of a prick and I’d like one or two more Ben White’s around. Gordon, Martinelli and a Jesus replacement would be a good situation going into next season.

MistaT Jota would be brilliant if he could stay consistently fit but that doesn't look like something that will ever happen. Gakpo is an ok striker in a strong team, bit of a Havertz in that regard. Agree on Diaz though, he's a top winger.

MistaT All this to say, I'm having a hard time believing that a brilliant LW signing will take us up a level unless Arteta also loosens his demands.

It'd have to be a player with Martinelli's attitude and workrate but just … better. At ball striking and close control. That player's always been bloody hard to imagine.

Burnwinter its stochastic squad-building. It's about probability of form, injury, combinations, balance, etc. It's not about guaranteed, direct upgrades in this case.

SimplyThePest I remember Henry talking about how Wenger told him not to work back as hard as he was. That his finishing would be sharper if he wasn't exhausted from running up and down the pitch constantly.

Qwiss and Paris confirmed it unfortunately when he had to run his socks off with 10 men and then missed his 1v1

It's 2025, every winger tracks up and down the flank. Newcastle just beat us playing a 5-5-0 where they had every player tracking back and behind the ball.

Don Pacifico tbf Martinelli and Saka have scored the same number of league goals.

Martinelli is outscoring his xg. Saka isn't. Both on 5 league goals.

Qwiss fair do. Either way, I'm not convinced tracking back is the main reason we're all a bit fed up with Marti.