William Saliba: Page 57 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

William Saliba

jones

Doc wrote:
Out of ESR, Martenelli, Saka and Pepe someone needed to get the short straw... on performances, Id say it should be Pepe, others might see it differently and I can maybe see why, Pepe has certain qualities the others dont... Honesty, if people disagree with all I have said above and rate Pepe more, im fine with that... but it is AT LEAST fucking debatable the pecking order of those 4 (actually Saka isnt for me which is again Pepe primary position..) but the way people go on about it here, ignore who his competition is and act like its a tragedy and we have been playing a centre back ahead of him or something.... and its obvious why.......

As you've just said it's "AT LEAST fucking debatable" to give Pepe some minutes. What actually happened Pepe started five (last one in October) matches, Odegaard started 32, Martinelli 28, ESR 23 and Saka started 37 out of 38 games including loads where he's looked very jaded. In 20/21 it was even worse considering merit, Pepe got 22 starts but not once more than three in a row, ESR got 21, Martinelli after his injury still racked up 16 and Saka got 30. During his limited time Pepe by himself outdid the tally of the other three combined.

Find your rants about centre backs starting at RW and it being "obvious" why people are unhappy hilarious. Of course it's because people just irrationally hate Arteta, not because Arteta's very actions and inconsistency regarding the players he fields is exactly what pisses people off with him.

Doc

So if it is debatable then there is nothing really inconsistent about his actions or outragous about his gametime given to Pepe, he prefers those guys over Pepe.. He prefers Saka who plays in his primary position over him, you know arguable the best young talent in the country.. Its unfortunate for him but it is what it is... its a reasonable view to have, even if people disagree with it.. There all young with everything to prove and need as much minutes as possible..

jones

So in your opinion the word "debatable" means any realistically conceivable view that Arteta could hold is fine and consistent?

Starting Saka over him is fine, starting him 37 matches when he was clearly knackered and/or in shit form isn't when you have an alternative. Do you really not understand why people have an issue with driving a kid into the ground while letting the alternative rot on the bench?

Doc

I just mean that saying Pepe is 4th choice is not a ridiculous view to have.. which would mean he would obviously get the least minutes of the 4, so its not because Arteta hates him or whatever.. if you think he should have still got more minutes, I've explained my reasons why I think he hasn't.

I think its great that Saka has started 37 games. Starting 37 games is not running him into the ground, if he plays 50/55+ next season with European football then yeah I will think that

Poor Saliba who Arteta fucked over has apparently played 52 games this season, where is the outcry? We are in his thread, ill wait.

jones

And I explained why Arteta clearly never gave him a chance, it was evident in 20/21 and even more so in 21/22.

Saka is 20 years old. Three seasons ago at 17/18 he started 30 matches, then had 40+ starts in consecutive seasons with a Euros tourney in between. Definitely running him into the ground at his age even if you ignored the clear fatigue he's shown in many matches this season.

RocktheCasbah

The issue is basically pretty clear to me - apologies for having hijacked this thread - but Arteta doesn't trust Pepe so he's not going to play him unless he absolutely has no option and, given that we have Bukayo Saka playing in Pepe's position, Arteta is quite blessed with his option thanks very much.

I understand that Pepe has been frozen out this season and some see this as a management failure - but I think we'll look back in years to come as Ian Wright did his England time under Graham Taylor and realise that, as much as we all want to blame the manager (I have in the past), the player himself bears the brunt of responsibility.

If Pepe had produced consistently good performances for Arteta, he'd be playing. It's that simple.

jones

RocktheCasbah wrote:
If Pepe had produced consistently good performances for Arteta, he'd be playing. It's that simple.

That's insanely simplifying if not patently false. Not just for Arteta, at any team in world football there are loads of other factors playing a role to how well someone plays or how often he even gets to perform. Just the other day Benzema was mentioned - the pretty much undisputed best player in the world at 34 scored a breathtaking five league goals when he was just hitting his prime at CL winning Real Madrid in 2018.

With Pepe we've seen him score 16 in a stop start season where we were at our worst attacking wise (probably overall too) in 30 years. We've seen him put in much better performances at a weaker Lille side four years ago. There's very little reason to assume that this is just or even primarily on him, just like it would be shortsighted to blame Kane for scoring three goals under Nuno and 24 under Conte.

RocktheCasbah

jones wrote:
RocktheCasbah wrote:
If Pepe had produced consistently good performances for Arteta, he'd be playing. It's that simple.

That's insanely simplifying if not patently false.

Well, it might be "insanely simplifying" if it was literally the only thing I said on the subject, but it wasn't now, was it?

Bukayo Saka, a twenty year old kid playing for a manager some of you reckon doesn't trust youngsters has made the right hand side of the pitch his own.

How has he managed that whilst competing with an experienced international winger, our record signing? Through consistently good performances, thereby building up such trust in the manager that he felt compelled to play him throughout the Premier League season.

jones

Bukayo Saka, a 20 year old winger and possibly the biggest talent to ever come through our academy, clearly had the trust of Arteta from day one. He's gone through several dips in form since breaking through but overall has managed to keep his starting berth, and we're reaping the benefits of his staying in the fold.

Pepe, international winger and record signing, never got that chance. Whenever he's had a poor performance, he was benched by any of Saka, ESR, Martinelli or fucking Willian. Even when he's had good performances he was in and out of the starting XI.

Not like this issue is exclusive to Pepe either, ESR was one of our more important players during our good run when he was regularly starting and arguably saved Arteta's job towards the end of 20/21. When his game time dried up so did the goals, he was arguably the worst player in the whole squad in the last few months of the season.

Your point is still "insanely simplifying", or to be more accurate you're mistaking cause and effect.

RocktheCasbah

I'm not sure how you can talk about reaping the benefits of continued trust in Saka whilst decrying the exclusion of the man whose position he took with a straight face, but don't let me stop you.

Smith Rowe had covid earlier this season, then he got injured and hasn't looked at all right in most of the games he's played this year but, by all means, make it about Arteta restricting him.

And you tell me I'm "oversimplifying"... Ha. Ha. Ha.

jones

Continued trust doesn't mean that you have to play the kid literally every game he's available for. Saka most likely would've even benefitted from getting a break here or there, but the important point here is he's always been near the team and was never frozen out.

When I talked about ESR I said that his performances dropped as soon as he lost playing rhythm, didn't even mention Arteta or anyone else.

Yeah you're definitely "oversimplifying". Reading your post you make it seem impossible to find playing time to share between players, either you back Saka by killing Pepe's career or you ruin the former's development by giving the latter a chance.

RocktheCasbah

I think I've already explained that I believe, for right and wrong, Arteta doesn't trust Pepe and that's why he's not playing him. It's not really about Bukayo Saka - although obviously it also sort of is. The crux is Arteta would rather give game time to Saka and Martinelli AND Smith Rowe. As Doc explained earlier.

You think Pepe was worth a go, that's fine but Arteta clearly did not agree. And all I was saying was I can understand why that is. That's it.

AAStyle

It seems a really black-or-white vision that one. Same happened with Willian, the guy played every possible minute when it was clear that that wasn't the best for the team.

Anzac

AAStyle- wrote:
It seems a really black-or-white vision that one. Same happened with Willian, the guy played every possible minute when it was clear that that wasn't the best for the team.

IMO the question it raises is less so about the players, but more so about the manager.
He wasn't playing his preferred formation and style because he was missing '5-6 players needed to be able to play his 433 style and roles', then what the frakk was he actually doing? He certainly wasn't playing a formation or system that looked to get the best from his available resources for the season/s, and he certainly wasn't trying to retain any value from them in the market to fund a rebuild so as to be able to bring in the numbers and quality required to get it done sooner rather than later.
As such it then makes the previous season a waste of time, players and loss of potential funds in that we more or less just marked time whilst we waited for something to change.

AAStyle

Yes, I'm sure that Arteta presented a stupid speech like "a car cannot function without having all the necessary parts, and that's what also happens with a team", and the Kroenkes bought it. This guy has learned from Pep at City, where he had replacements and subs that were at the same level of their starters. That is not going to happen here.

We are just wasting everything in persisting with a grossly incompetent coach.

Sicario

So Gunedouzi the cunt is ‘advising’ Saliba to stay at Marseille.

Why is he getting involved in our matters, Saliba clearly stated he was coming back to us, there are no longer any grey areas.

Gunedouzi is toxic and should mind his own business the prick.

QuincyAbeyie

I'd hope an Arsenal player was advising players to stay here as well. Doesn't sound very controversial.

Sicario

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
I'd hope an Arsenal player was advising players to stay here as well. Doesn't sound very controversial.

He’s an Arsenal player, not a Marseille one and Guendouzi used to play for us so should know better causing this type of trouble, guy has no respect or self-awareness.

AAStyle

This would be a perfect opportunity to slam Arteta, but I will just say that Saliba has already stated that he will come. We will see how Arteta handles him for the second time. Taking into consideration the gross stupidity of wasting 6 months of his life in the reserves, I have zero expectations on that matter.

Klaus

Saliba has better advisers than Guendouzi anyway, I doubt what he says even registers. Also doubt he's the first Marseille teammate to beg Saliba to stay.

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