William Saliba: Page 56 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

William Saliba

AAStyle

Coombs wrote:
This isn't a thread for reasonable discussion, RTC. Can't win against these goblins

😆 😆 😆 C'mon Coombs, no need to call the ones who oppose Arteta goblins.

Qwiss

Is coombs pro Arteta again?

Gazza M

RocktheCasbah wrote:
Ray wrote:
How can you say he’s struggled to make the step up if he hasn’t had the chance to play?

Pepe hasn't had chances? Okaaaay..

artetas management of him last season wasn't great. there were times when pepe looked to be in high fettle, but was reduced to very intermittment minutes. at the same time, pepe has also generally struggled since coming to arsenal, and I've never been entirely convinced by him. one of those situations where there's a confluence of issues at play

RocktheCasbah

Sure, one of them also being Bukayo Saka's general excellence and resilience. My main point though is that ripping it up in Ligue 1 is no guarantee of success in the Premier League - especially for a super young centre back. And he is, still, super young.

QuincyAbeyie

Qwiss! wrote:
Is coombs pro Arteta again?

Depends on today's coin flip.

jones

RocktheCasbah wrote:
jones wrote:
You think the way we handled him, not letting him play in a cup final, not registering him for six months and having him rot in the reserves, sending him to four different clubs in 30 months, all this was better than risking "destroying" a 20 year old who the club valued at 30m when he had just turned 18?

No. And I didn't say that.

But there is a clear view from a lot of you that Arteta is responsible for a lot of the perceived wrongs done to Saliba - presumably because you've all decided you know better than Arteta. Did Arteta prevent Saliba playing in the cup final, or the club?

Arteta obviously chose not to register him, perceiving that he wasn't ready to play football for Arsenal. Is it his fault that a loan wasn't sorted out, or the club's?

I don't see the problem with sending a player on loan to different clubs if you need to - the latest loan seems to have worked very well for player and club and Saliba now appears ready to compete for the first team.

And finally, I don't think Arteta is duty bound to play a player just because Arsenal spent ridiculous amounts of money on him before Arteta joined. Does the name Nicolas Pepe mean anything to you?

You do realise that you do the exact thing you're accusing everyone else of? I'm basing my view on who's in charge on what everyone in and around the club says, that Arteta has turned the club into an extension of himself. Lacazette literally said in an interview that the whole club revolves around Arteta, he was promoted a year and a half ago and got a contract extension after three losses on the bounce. There's not a whole lot to assume that big decisions involving the squad happen without the manager's say-so

It's 100% Arteta's fault that Saliba lost six months of development being stuck in the reserves. I'm pretty sure in one of his magnanimous interviews he even said so himself. He registered Mustafi and Kolasinac and gave them 40 and 90 minutes each, then shipped them out in January while letting Saliba go on loan. How is it 2022 and we're still discussing whether this was Arteta's fuck up or not?

The latest loan worked very well yes, but let's not act like this was down to the club's great planning in advance for Saliba and his career. We dumped him at Marseille because we happened to be in talks because of Guendouzi and Kolasinac. The only loan the club "did well" at was the one we did immediately after signing him because at that point he had just 15 games to his name and was very young. We paid 30m for him, meaning we rated him highly enough to make him our second most expensive defender ever.

Then Arteta arrived and almost doubled that fee for White, a talented (albeit inferior) player who's very young for a defender himself, whose price tag almost positively means he'll start over everyone else, who got Saliba's shirt number while the latter was still at the club. But sure, all very much still seems like it's part of some grand plan with Saliba's best interests in mind.

jones

RocktheCasbah wrote:
Ray wrote:
How can you say he’s struggled to make the step up if he hasn’t had the chance to play?

Pepe hasn't had chances? Okaaaay..

Yes, Pepe clearly has had more than enough chances last season, when he came in and had the best cameo of anyone all season vs Wolves and immediately went back to the bench gathering some 600 minutes all season. Or the season before, when he couldn't even get three consecutive starts all year despite being our second best scorer.

I honestly understand some Artetafan positions, you don't want to log on here and be overwhelmed with the negativity but some of the spin added here to almost any of his decisions is nauseating. Some powerful juju at work here, Coombs was understandably done with him after the collapse vs Newcastle now he's back to calling people names like a fucking child in this thread again.

QuincyAbeyie

Blaming his lack of minutes on Saka seems very convenient for me. Pepe can play on both sides and while Saka was our player of the season we've been playing an out of form Martinelli who was immune to scoring for large parts of the season, while ESR's goals also dried up.

jones

Saka himself had a bunch of dry patches during our season, plus he also had many good games on the left.

People who at this point still believe that Arteta gives everyone a fair shake could watch him assault Pepe or Saliba and they'd still find a way to spin this. He very clearly plays favourites and banishes who he doesn't like, no amount of handwringing histrionics to use a Burns term will change that.

FEBravo

Just can't wait to see those who are anti-Arteta hype up his performances, and those who are pro-Arteta underplay them. After everything, the fact that the poor kid will continue to be used as a proxy for Arteta remaining as manager is what is the most sad. really hope he gets a fair shake regardless of the views by everyone about Arteta.

Think it's time to move on from how he has been handled, as no one will change their minds at this stage as to whether it was Arteta's fault, typical Arsenal club shambolic behaviour, or a master stroke. let's just back the kid, hope he comes back determined to prove everyone wrong at the club, and gets a fair shake from the manager.

RocktheCasbah

jones wrote:
Saka himself had a bunch of dry patches during our season, plus he also had many good games on the left.

People who at this point still believe that Arteta gives everyone a fair shake could watch him assault Pepe or Saliba and they'd still find a way to spin this. He very clearly plays favourites and banishes who he doesn't like, no amount of handwringing histrionics to use a Burns term will change that.

No, actually, I basically agree with (some of) this. I just don't think Saliba was ready to play in the Premier League two years, or possibly even a year ago.

With Pepe specifically, as I brought him up.. he's not had many chances this season but I think Arteta had basically made his mind up about him a year ago (possibly, given the signing of Willian, two years ago) and it was unlikely to be changed this season. But if any of you can sit with s straight face and tell me Pepe didn't drive you absolutely mad, you're better men than me.

For the record, I'd have liked to have seen him used more, to give Saka a break as much as anything else - but I completely understand Arteta's reticence. We've talked about Pepe loads on the Daily Cannon podcast.

jones

RocktheCasbah wrote:
jones wrote:
Saka himself had a bunch of dry patches during our season, plus he also had many good games on the left.

People who at this point still believe that Arteta gives everyone a fair shake could watch him assault Pepe or Saliba and they'd still find a way to spin this. He very clearly plays favourites and banishes who he doesn't like, no amount of handwringing histrionics to use a Burns term will change that.

No, actually, I basically agree with (some of) this. I just don't think Saliba was ready to play in the Premier League two years, or possibly even a year ago.

With Pepe specifically, as I brought him up.. he's not had many chances this season but I think Arteta had basically made his mind up about him a year ago (possibly, given the signing of Willian, two years ago) and it was unlikely to be changed this season. But if any of you can sit with s straight face and tell me Pepe didn't drive you absolutely mad, you're better men than me.

For the record, I'd have liked to have seen him used more, to give Saka a break as much as anything else - but I completely understand Arteta's reticence. We've talked about Pepe loads on the Daily Cannon podcast.

Pepe is a high risk high reward player. You keep someone like that stuck on the bench ruining their confidence and they tend to lose the reward with just the risk staying. He's looked like that for Lille at first too before becoming a force of nature destroying teams by himself in his last season there.

He's the best (if unconventional) dribbler and best finisher in the entire squad. You have to look at players' abilities and potential not just their current return when you pick your teams. Think back to when RVP was coming back from his last big injury for us, Wenger started taking Chamakh off after 60 minutes every game for months to get RVP back into form, he looked atrocious for a long time but soon started smashing them in for us. If Arteta gave Pepe even half the amount of chances we'd be in the CL right now, little doubt in my mind about it.

jones

FEBravo wrote:
Just can't wait to see those who are anti-Arteta hype up his performances, and those who are pro-Arteta underplay them. After everything, the fact that the poor kid will continue to be used as a proxy for Arteta remaining as manager is what is the most sad. really hope he gets a fair shake regardless of the views by everyone about Arteta.

Think it's time to move on from how he has been handled, as no one will change their minds at this stage as to whether it was Arteta's fault, typical Arsenal club shambolic behaviour, or a master stroke. let's just back the kid, hope he comes back determined to prove everyone wrong at the club, and gets a fair shake from the manager.

Well the fair shake part is exactly why I hope Arteta gets himself sacked quickly enough. I was never a fan of the White signing but with a better manager we could even find games where we could play 343 or 352 with our current squad. That's really all I ask for in our head coach, to keep an open mind and give everyone an equal shot at working himself into the first team. Even those who defend him acknowledge that Artetas had his "mind made up" about specific players before they ever had a chance to change it.

QuincyAbeyie

RocktheCasbah wrote:
jones wrote:
Saka himself had a bunch of dry patches during our season, plus he also had many good games on the left.

People who at this point still believe that Arteta gives everyone a fair shake could watch him assault Pepe or Saliba and they'd still find a way to spin this. He very clearly plays favourites and banishes who he doesn't like, no amount of handwringing histrionics to use a Burns term will change that.

No, actually, I basically agree with (some of) this. I just don't think Saliba was ready to play in the Premier League two years, or possibly even a year ago.

We also played in the EL against far worse opposition than what Saliba had already faced in Ligue 1.

Gazza M

RocktheCasbah wrote:
Sure, one of them also being Bukayo Saka's general excellence and resilience. My main point though is that ripping it up in Ligue 1 is no guarantee of success in the Premier League - especially for a super young centre back. And he is, still, super young

saka and in particular martinellis form was questionable during the final stretch of the season. more liberal use of rotation would've helped imo, especially since we were badly struggling for goal threat most of the time. my feeling is arteta considered pepe surplus to requirements months ago, and did one his habitual freeze outs. once you're on the outs with him, you're lucky to see a minute of game time. over the long term this type of squad management doesn't work

RocktheCasbah

Gazza M wrote:
RocktheCasbah wrote:
Sure, one of them also being Bukayo Saka's general excellence and resilience. My main point though is that ripping it up in Ligue 1 is no guarantee of success in the Premier League - especially for a super young centre back. And he is, still, super young

saka and in particular martinellis form was questionable during the final stretch of the season. more liberal use of rotation would've helped imo, especially since we were badly struggling for goal threat most of the time. my feeling is arteta considered pepe surplus to requirements months ago, and did one his habitual freeze outs. once you're on the outs with him, you're lucky to see a minute of game time. over the long term this type of squad management doesn't work

Again - I agree, it's been clear for a while that Pepe is very much the "break only in case of absolute emergency" option and Arteta has preferred to give minutes to Martinelli and ESR (hey, look! he does prefer the yoots in certain scenarios) and that preference has probably cost us points in some matches. Unfortunately, it's also caused a general fade out of Bukayo Saka's excellent season.

I think the signing of Willian two seasons ago, especially after the way Pepe finished the 19/20 season, was incredibly instructive and basically told us Arteta wasn't really gonna have Pepe. That Willian was such a disaster doesn't render the judgement on Pepe invalid and it's not as if Pepe was tearing up trees before Arteta arrived and then he stopped. I remember a game at Old Trafford where we had a £72m winger on one side and a kid from Hale End on the other and if you'd asked a random person which one was which, they would have got the answer wrong.

Only one game, but one that, for me, has been difficult to forget. Even has someone who, as I mentioned above, had been pressing the case for more Pepe involvement up till the last few months of this season.

And to be clear, I definitely agree that Arteta has got to get much better at managing the squad beyond the 14/15 players who have formed the matchday team, whether starting or from the bench.

Clrnc

jones wrote:
RocktheCasbah wrote:
Pepe hasn't had chances? Okaaaay..

I honestly understand some Artetafan positions, you don't want to log on here and be overwhelmed with the negativity but some of the spin added here to almost any of his decisions is nauseating. Some powerful juju at work here, Coombs was understandably done with him after the collapse vs Newcastle now he's back to calling people names like a fucking child in this thread again.

I would add that if people have nothing better to post then don't come in and add crap like that too and call people names when mostly the posters above are engaging in reasonable takes both ways with actual reasoning and content in it.

And also why does admitting Arteta fucked up the Saliba situation means you have to either love him or hate him? If we read above the only one accusing an agenda are those who have nothing better to add and just says they are tired of rehashing or people hates Arteta.

Back to the topic

RocktheCasbah wrote:
With Pepe specifically, as I brought him up.. he's not had many chances this season but I think Arteta had basically made his mind up about him a year ago (possibly, given the signing of Willian, two years ago) and it was unlikely to be changed this season. But if any of you can sit with s straight face and tell me Pepe didn't drive you absolutely mad, you're better men than me.

For the record, I'd have liked to have seen him used more, to give Saka a break as much as anything else - but I completely understand Arteta's reticence. We've talked about Pepe loads on the Daily Cannon podcast.

I think it's also important to note that on the other hand, Pepe has had excellent games where he won games for us singlehandedly, and then not been given another chance for the next 2 months. It also coincided with a period where Saka was struggling for form and yet Pepe get no minutes. Even in march threads people who don't rate Pepe is bewildered when Tavares or whatnot gets subbed in ahead of Pepe.

Edit: saw your post above, I do agree. His man management skills have serious room for improvements.

Doc

Pepe has been mostly average since he has been here.. We have 3 of the most promising youngster in the country competing for similar spots.. A generational fucking talent playing in his default position.. every minute these guys get is really valuable for their development which importantly was limited last year due to no European football.. If Pepe came in and was killing it then you could argue has had to play but he was mostly poor every time he came on.. find of all the arguments, this is the most baffling..,

jones

He came on vs Wolves and single handedly turned a 0-1 loss to a 2-1 win. Don't think there was a single poster here who wasn't ecstatic after that win, even I gave the gaffer his unconditional dues that night.

Then Arteta rewarded him with zero starts for the rest of the season, not even another cameo where he got more than 20 minutes. Find it baffling how people don't understand the concept of finding form via playing time.

Doc

I'm sure I would improve if I consistently played in the team but doesn't mean I should. He had a good cameo, does that mean he deserved to start over Saka? I dont think so, Saka has been our star player, pretty much undroppable... You also mention consistency, we have mostly been playing 1 game a week, you don't think the 1st team players need these games to stay in form?

You could argue putting him or Saka on the left but its not really an ideal solution.. Not sure he has been all that great there and Saka best postion is clearly RW... but even so, who did Pepe deserve minutes over in the team when the minutes where extremely limited? Its the position in the team where we have the most quality.. Saying he should play more minutes is easy but there is a squad to manage with no European football.

Out of ESR, Martenelli, Saka and Pepe someone needed to get the short straw... on performances, Id say it should be Pepe, others might see it differently and I can maybe see why, Pepe has certain qualities the others dont... Honesty, if people disagree with all I have said above and rate Pepe more, im fine with that... but it is AT LEAST fucking debatable the pecking order of those 4 (actually Saka isnt for me which is again Pepe primary position..) but the way people go on about it here, ignore who his competition is and act like its a tragedy and we have been playing a centre back ahead of him or something.... and its obvious why.......
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