I think it's a lot to demand that he's better than Luiz and Holding while still only 19. That he's good enough to play against the garbage we've been facing in the EL on the other hand is quite obvious since he's played against better teams weekly for the last one of a half season before he got here.

He may not be good enough right now, but he will be learning from mistakes if played and has potential to he better than those two. Arteta is putting results over developing talent and wants Saliba to learn his trade elsewhere, which is fair enough especially as young centre backs can make big mistakes, but the first team aren’t even delivering results right now either. Would rather he uses this season as a transition period because lets face it our best chance of getting back into the CL is through winning the europa league.

What’s the point in playing Holding, Luiz, Willian, Xhaka, Elneny, Laca etc if they aren’t getting us into the CL anyway. Better off developing talent that may get us back into the top 4 next season.

Klaus wrote:

Yeah there's no way they'll do that unless he's been caught doing drugs or something.

Saliba will get loaned out in January, and when he returns in the summer or a year from now or whenever it might or might not be Arteta who's still managing Arsenal. Either way the club has invested too much time and money in him already to just let Art chuck him out.

The guy was legit supposed to be the next big thing, so the whole affair is unsettling until we see the direction. 

That said, the approach of thinking we’ve already invested too much time and money into players to let go of them is what has gotten us in trouble in the past. It’s why we persisted forever with guys like Walcott, and generally have squad bloat. We should never look backwards with players, only forward. What might you give us, what help will you need to get there, and what will it cost? 

Claudius wrote:

That said, the approach of thinking we’ve already invested too much time and money into players to let go of them is what has gotten us in trouble in the past. It’s why we persisted forever with guys like Walcott, and generally have squad bloat.

Walcott played 400 games for us over a 12 year career. Saliba is a teenager who cost over £30 million who hasn't even debuted for the first team yet. You can't blow that kind of money on a youth player only to then consider it a sunk cost and move on before he has played a single minute, that's suicidal.

There's a longterm plan in place for routing players like him through and we have to commit to it regardless of any bumps in the road or who the manager is. If they can't get minutes here they have to get them elsewhere. The same is true of Eddie, Nelson, Smith-Rowe, Balogun, etc. Even Guendouzi, who's currently been put out to pasture at Hertha Berlin. If you want Arsenal to be a serious club again then we need to have serious structures.

I agree completely with your second paragraph. We need to have a long term plan for everyone.
On the minutes issue, I’m a bit worried about forwards. Some of these guys really need to think about going on loan and getting time under the belts. The only person who should consider himself safe is Nketiah because he is starting and producing, and so is well integrated. But I look at a guy like Nelson and think about the opportunity cost of him just sitting on the bench versus starting at Burnley every week.

But I no longer care about the £30m. That was a buying decision. Now we need to make decisions about winning over the next 2 to 3 seasons. Vinai can come back and tell Edu and the scouts to buy better or the same based on past experience. But that’s all.

It's about winning, but it's also about how you get there and with what money.

Consider this for a moment Claude: We invested £80 million in two - very good - starting players (Gabriel and Partey) this summer, and we're worse off in the table for it. We did the same thing last season (Tierney and Pepe) when we had our worst season in the era of the three-point system, and the year before (Leno and Auba) where both seasons ended in bitter disappointment.

Maybe the issue isn't that we're incapable of finding a good player every summer/winter, but that we don't have enough of them pulling in one direction at once. You have two ways of getting there: the City and PSG way, where you just buy everyone at once because you don't play by the same rules as everyone else, or the way of the rest, where you keep working with what you have at the moment while you create better pathways for players to emerge and grow.

Arteta is doing a 1/10 job this season with what he's got in the present, but that shouldn't affect Saliba's longterm whereabouts at Arsenal, at least not before he has been tested thoroughly and been given help to realise his talent. And selling him for half of what we paid right now is not going to get us to move up a tier any quicker.

KingslandBarge wrote:

I really don't think one needs to see too much of Saliba to know his quality, and that he's probably favorable to achieve the kind of reputation and foothold that the likes of Umtiti or Varane have in the national side. So whatever is going on or sounds like may happen,  his quality and potential will be down the list of reasons for me.

No idea about Raul, but the transfer value for Saliba never seemed inflated for me.

I think that's the entire problem. How many people actually watched him at St. Etienne to form the conclusion that he was a quality prospect? It seems like his entire reputation within the fanbase was built upon him being French, resembling Varane in terms of looks/stature and his 30 million price tag. The guy barely played for a shit team in a shit league. Since he's arrived here, how many people have actually watched him play for the reserves?

He's made fewer than 30 league starts in his entire career and he's 19 years old. And that's in France. I have never seen him play, but I have followed football long enough to know that someone of that age and experience does not play for the top-flight clubs in England aspiring for success. A I said when we signed him that the best thing we could do for his career is to let him stay in France for the next 4/5 years, let him clock up 150 appearances and then reassess.

22-year-old CB's are massively error-prone regardless of their potential so 19-year-old CB's shouldn't even be in the conversation. That's not to say that he couldn't have played in the dead rubber games but I wouldn't be surprised if he's way too raw at this stage of his career.

Didn't Arteta sort of recently admitted that in hindsight he should have registered Saliba for the EL squad? There seemed to have been a hint or regret, like he wasnt expecting Saliba to turn it around so quickly, whatever the issue was (personal or footballing). Someone had suggested this had betrayed Arteta's lack of experience, and I think that's right.

Klaus wrote:

It's about winning, but it's also about how you get there and with what money.

Consider this for a moment Claude: We invested £80 million in two - very good - starting players (Gabriel and Partey) this summer, and we're worse off in the table for it. We did the same thing last season (Tierney and Pepe) when we had our worst season in the era of the three-point system, and the year before (Leno and Auba).

Maybe the issue isn't that we're incapable of finding a good player every summer/winter, but that we don't have enough of them pulling in one direction at once. You have two ways of getting there: the City and PSG way, where you just buy everyone at once because you don't play by the same rules as everyone else, or the way of the rest, where you keep working with what you have at the moment while you create better pathways for players to emerge and grow.

Arteta is doing a 1/10 work this season with what he's got in the present, but that shouldn't affect Saliba's longterm whereabouts at Arsenal, at least not before he has been tested thoroughly and been given help to realise his talent. And selling him for half of what we paid right now is not going to get us to move up a tier any quicker.

I’m not saying we should sell him. The kid is obviously young. The best thing for him last 3 months would’ve been to be playing here or somewhere else full time, all else permitting. But I don’t know enough about his situation.

I’m just saying we need to divorce playing decisions from buying decisions when making decisions going forward. Take Pépé, I have faith he will be good for us. But if he was actually shit, the worst thing we could do is say, he cost us £70m, we need to get the most out of him so he has to stay and play for 5 years.
But we also need to help ourselves by making the best buying decisions possible. And we can do that with stability, a clear plan about what our playing ethos is, the player profiles required, and having an overall player lifecycle plan that dictates when players should ideally be bought, promoted, sold. If we have that blueprint to work from it is easier to make good decisions and save ourselves from overspending on players we won’t use.

I wouldn't be surprised if Per was involved in all this. He's very committed to players' mental health.

Seems to be more vocal on social media.

Probs not much to read in to it, but I sense he’s a bit baffled by his situation.

He’ll go out on loan and leave.

Don’t blame him for being peeved but not sure being vocal about it on social media is the way to go about it.

FEBravo wrote:

Didn't Arteta sort of recently admitted that in hindsight he should have registered Saliba for the EL squad? There seemed to have been a hint or regret, like he wasnt expecting Saliba to turn it around so quickly, whatever the issue was (personal or footballing). Someone had suggested this had betrayed Arteta's lack of experience, and I think that's right.

The U turn on balogun is another makes me feel there's beem some rash decisions made at the start of the season that they wish they could walk back. 

Now I am curious, what did he do to offend Arteta and get locked up like this?

Are people reading that much into a fairly innocuous post on IG? Guess COVID does give everyone more time to obsess over minutiae...

The reality of this whole situation is likely far more mundane than any of these conspiracy theories.

Clrnc wrote:

Now I am curious, what did he do to offend Arteta and get locked up like this?

Think you’re taking it a little too literally, he’s basically just referring to the fact that he can’t and isn’t playing.

how is Doozy getting along btw?

Was apparently very good today against Monchengladbach.

Scored a cracking goal too.

Yep he’s been excellent in recent games. Value soaring at the very least

So the French players at least seem to be together. Fun times for Mikel. He better not lose the squad on man management issues. His football must be tough enough to swallow without having mistrust as well.

goon wrote:

Clrnc wrote:

Now I am curious, what did he do to offend Arteta and get locked up like this?

Think you’re taking it a little too literally, he’s basically just referring to the fact that he can’t and isn’t playing.

See the video comments with homesteak.

Players won't be commenting like this if they are happy about the situation. It always happens.

Much easier to think that he is quality but isn't playing for non footballing reasons.

I never said he's happy, ofc he would be. I'm saying you're taking it too literally in the sense that his situation and Guendouzi's is the same.

Selling news is fake, we are not selling him according to Orny. He prefers to go on loan to a UK club to speed up adaptation. 

Saliba wants to stay in the UK with January loan

Of the many issues faced by Arsenal during their dismal start to the Premier League season, few have perplexed supporters more than William Saliba’s complete lack of first-team action.

Saliba was signed from boyhood club St Etienne in 2019 for £27 million and, then aged 18, he immediately returned to the French side on loan to continue his development.

But that season was disrupted by injuries, football’s COVID-19 shutdown and a family bereavement, meaning he arrived in London last summer without the intended preparation.

He found a different head coach (Mikel Arteta) to the man who was in charge when he joined (Unai Emery) and that always risked bringing additional complications to the relationship.

Deemed not ready for selection in the early weeks of this campaign, Saliba was given permission in the final days of the transfer window to make another loan move and there were options in the UK and abroad. He chose St Etienne again but the paperwork was not completed in time and his situation deteriorated further when Arteta omitted him from Arsenal’s Europa League squad.

Saliba is still yet to make a senior appearance and despite Arteta citing “massive improvements”, the centre-back’s selection chances are further hampered by circumstances beyond his control.

A hectic fixture schedule sees Arsenal playing two matches each week and that leaves minimal time for proper training. When the squad are away, Saliba works alongside the other players not included and the under-23s. When the whole group is together, the need to prepare the starting XI for the next fixture often results in the likes of Saliba being utilised as practice opposition.

Central defence is also a congested position at Arsenal with Gabriel Magalhaes, Rob Holding, David Luiz, Shkodran Mustafi, Calum Chambers and Pablo Mari all ahead of Saliba in the pecking order, while Sokratis Papastathopoulos is another out of contention at the Emirates Stadium.

Saliba’s hopes should improve next season as Luiz, Mustafi and Papastathopoulos are coming to the end of their contracts, which makes game time between now and then all the more important.

Arteta confirmed last week that a fresh loan is being discussed for January and The Athletic understands Saliba’s preference would be to stay within the UK, which may speed up his adaptation over the final six months of the campaign. Failing that, there are a number of possibilities in France.

There has been no indication from Arsenal that they would consider selling the 19-year-old; to the contrary, they remain optimistic he will fulfil the potential that convinced them to recruit him.

It's great news that he wants a UK loan, always felt like going back to St Etienne was a regressive move with the wrong motivations and not one where he'd learn a great deal.

Lequipe says Saliba will go on loan, discussions about which club with Arteta and Edu will be next week.

But if Arteta gets sacked he will stay.

Clrnc wrote:

Lequipe says Saliba will go on loan, discussions about which club with Arteta and Edu will be next week.

This is like the most recycled Arsenal story of the season.

Can’t see him ever making a first team appearance.

He’ll be sold on. Odd saga but hopefully we’ll get another decent centreback to partner Gabriel

This Saliba issue might be another Ozil issue. There could be something else going on. It is not hard to put this kid on the bench 2 or 3 times.

Maybe there's a huge fee we have to pay him or st Etienne if he plays for us

Or a 3rd party. It could that simple. The contract structure is punitive early on.
I still can’t believe we chose to not register a fit Saliba and instead went for unfit Mari in Europa League. This team is so shady.

From all the early decisions Arteta made which are now under question, this is the one that is the most inexplicable. Ozil, Sokratis, Guendouzi you can disagree with but you can understand why they were made. Then later with the obsession with Willian and Xhaka, it makes those earlier decisions come under more scrutiny. The Saliba one, on the other hand, never made much sense.

Heard Liverpool are interested. So we’re gonna let a potentially world class CB fulfil his potential at our rivals because greasy Mik didn’t like how he’s mates with Guendouzi or whatever it is?

If Liverpool are interested, that’s really dispiriting. They usually get it right with respect to transfers.
I hope the Kroenke’s are forced to sell. Fuck them and their entire crew.

Claudius wrote:

Or a 3rd party. It could that simple. The contract structure is punitive early on.
I still can’t believe we chose to not register a fit Saliba and instead went for unfit Mari in Europa League. This team is so shady.

3rd party ownership is banned in England.

I've watched a couple of Salibas games from even before we bought him initially, he looked a massive talent. Better than Fofana who's starting for Leicester and easily better than most of the dross we have. Unless he's forgotten everything he knows about defending in a few weeks this looks like a deliberate move by the manager, fuck knows why. The way he's behaved in the last months this might be just him stamping his authority Mourinho style.

jones wrote:

Claudius wrote:

Or a 3rd party. It could that simple. The contract structure is punitive early on.
I still can’t believe we chose to not register a fit Saliba and instead went for unfit Mari in Europa League. This team is so shady.

3rd party ownership is banned in England.

I've watched a couple of Salibas games from even before we bought him initially, he looked a massive talent. Better than Fofana who's starting for Leicester and easily better than most of the dross we have. Unless he's forgotten everything he knows about defending in a few weeks this looks like a deliberate move by the manager, fuck knows why. The way he's behaved in the last months this might be just him stamping his authority Mourinho style.

Think Claude meant more in terms of paying a 3rd party some payment related to a clause in the way the signing was structured, for example if there was an intermediary like in the Pepe deal (although there was nothing in the papers regarding a similar deal for Saliba).

But yes, this is a strange one. I don't know what reason there could have been other than the family problems he was having and possibly not being in the right frame of mind but if that was the case then it's make sense to either send him back on loan in France to be closer with his family, give him time off which means not playing him in U23s, or registering him and giving him the odd game here and there (especially if he is right enough mentally to play U23 games).

Like you said, he looked a better player than Fofana when they played together and even though he was the younger of the two, he was the more mature one. There's no way he'd be any worse than Mustafi, Solaris, Holding or Chambers in any case.

given how things have transpired thus far, it could just be rank incompetence of our management. the whole saga is just frustrating. as Jones said, the guy was looking like a proper talent until his pre coved injury. ASSE kept a number of clean sheet with him in the side

Big Willie wrote:

But yes, this is a strange one. I don't know what reason there could have been other than the family problems he was having and possibly not being in the right frame of mind but if that was the case then it's make sense to either send him back on loan in France to be closer with his family, give him time off which means not playing him in U23s, or registering him and giving him the odd game here and there (especially if he is right enough mentally to play U23 games).

Given that Saliba appears to be really keen to play I think they cynically used his families loss as an excuse for freezing him out.