Circus circa 2020: Page 38 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Circus circa 2020

JazzG

Klaus wrote:

😆

Claudius

Klaus wrote:

This is such a daft post. Ashley should toss herself in a hole and stop making twitter a toxic place. What’s being on SNL got to do with anything?

Mirth

Yeah, I think there are plenty of legitimate arguments to be made but being on SNL isn't one of them.

Klaus

Claudius wrote:
Klaus wrote:

This is such a daft post. Ashley should toss herself in a hole and stop making twitter a toxic place. What’s being on SNL got to do with anything?

I think it's more the fact that there's another primary in Michigan in 40 hours and Warren hasn't lifted a finger to support the one progressive left in the race (she did have time to go on tv and attack him again though). It's not daft; it's exactly right. Instead of joining forces against someone she literally called unelectable she's busy growing her personal brand. Typical american politician. Everything is for show.

Maybe people dying due to a lack of healthcare, a failing climate and US imperial foreign policy is a little more important than people being "toxic" on twitter because they call for a politican to do the absolute bare minimum?

Claudius

I don’t think she will back Bernie. He’s losing. And Warren is a party progressive along with Harris, Booker, Abram and others. Why blow up all the capital you’ve earned by backing one last losing effort by an outsider?

Klaus

Of course she won't back Sanders, that's the whole point. Not a single one of those people are progressives.

Claudius

is Warren’s whole purpose in life to be Bernie’s handmaiden?

Klaus

Handmaiden 😆

Warren's purpose as a self-proclaimed progressive who has just run for president on a progressive platform is, you would think, to support other progressive politicians, especially when they have the best shot at winning an election in the modern history of the US - not to sit idly by while a fuck like Biden is gaining traction. Or it would have been if she'd been serious about the actual issues. She's an opportunist though: she'll do what's best for her career, not the actual people and the climate. Same old story. Americans get taken in by these people every damn time. Not a single lesson was learned from the Obama years.

Claudius

Let’s see, support the guy who is going to lose or sit out/endorse winner and have a chance at a cabinet position where you can actually implement your ideas. Also, at this moment, what is America’s most important Obie give? Is it implementing the progressive agenda or winning all 3 elections in the fall? A quick resolution to this race probably increases those chances

Klaus

Claudius wrote:
Let’s see, support the guy who is going to lose or sit out/endorse winner and have a chance at a cabinet position where you can actually implement your ideas.

You keep saying he's going to lose but he's only 90 delegates behind. There's every chance to make a push for the majority still, but not if people like Warren refuse to get involved.

As for having a chance of implementing her ideas, since when has the democratic party ever gotten behind a single progressive issue without being forced to do so? Absolutely deluded to think that Biden's administration would do it. Her best chance of ever driving through any progressive ideas is if Sanders gets elected, not another right-wing asshole.

Gazza M

Sanders people are getting too hung up on warren. The signs have always been there that she's very party conscious, not the firebrand progressives thought she was going to be. Bernies firm positioning and willingness to call the party out since 2016 has given people a different image of what a progressive leader can be, one that doesn't jive with warrens image

On biden, he might mr magoo his way through to awin in the general. HRC was thoroughly disliked in 2016, i think biden makes up some ground there automatically. Getting the obamas on the campaign trail early will also help. Also, voter turn-out appears to have spiked in VA compared to the 2016 primary. If that trend continues across MI, WI, PA he can eke out a win in the general. Alot of what trump can throw at him goes both ways (corruption, gaffes, creep factor with women) so that may be blunted, although hypocrisy appears to be one of trumps super powers. The only thing i can see trump getting dinging him on is things like voting for NAFTA, and that he'd never won elections until this year.

Klaus

Claudius wrote:
Also, at this moment, what is America’s most important Obie give? Is it implementing the progressive agenda or winning all 3 elections in the fall? A quick resolution to this race probably increases those chances

America's - and the world's - only shot at this stage is to get someone elected who'll actually do something about end-stage capitalism and climate change. That is never going to be Joe Biden, who has spent his career fighting against virtually every progressive idea in history. If he wins democrats will just be lulled into the false sense of security that everything is okay, because at least they beat Trump, and then the rest of us are fucked.

It's not even remotely enough to put a democrat in the White House. The Democratic party are slighly less awful than the republicans, and it's all they have ever aspired to be. There have been democrats in power for half of the past 50 years and not a thing has been done to solve the actual issues that are now becoming existential threats. The whole system needs upheaval, and it has to happen now. We don't have time to count the degrees in hell while you guys keep fucking up.

Claudius

The map doesn’t support momentum, Klaus.

Again, Warren has more progressive wins under her belt than Bernie. He’s a great organizer and leader of the masses but this woman gets actual shit done. The only time I can think of Bernie getting anything done in recent memory was when he chose not to derail Obamacare with his idealism by accepting rural health care centers in places of public insurance option.

Claudius

Klaus wrote:
Claudius wrote:
Also, at this moment, what is America’s most important Obie give? Is it implementing the progressive agenda or winning all 3 elections in the fall? A quick resolution to this race probably increases those chances

America's - and the world's - only shot at this stage is to get someone elected who'll actually do something about end-stage capitalism and climate change. That is never going to be Joe Biden, who has spent his career fighting against virtually every progressive idea in history. If he wins democrats will just be lulled into the false sense of security that everything is okay, because at least they beat Trump, and then the rest of us are fucked.

It's not even remotely enough to put a democrat in the White House. The Democratic party are slighly less awful than the republicans, and it's all they have ever aspired to be. There have been democrats in power for half of the past 50 years and not a thing has been done to solve the actual issues that are now becoming existential threats. The whole system needs upheaval, and it has to happen now. We don't have time to count the degrees in hell while you guys keep fucking up.

Do we need a better model for capitalism? Yes. Is climate change urgent? Yes.
Moot points with maniacal racist misogynistic sociopath in power for another 4 years. The focus has to be on getting him out and supporting downballot senators in swing states.
Anyway, going to watch Juve now

Klaus

Claudius wrote:
The map doesn’t support momentum, Klaus.

It did just two weeks ago. Momentum can swing so quickly, but it's a wee bit hard when every centrist who drops out endorses Biden while the one supposed progressive to end her campaign doesn't endorse what's left of the progressive movement, all while corporate media are comparing Sanders to nazis and deadly viruses on live tv.

Klaus

Claudius wrote:
Do we need a better model for capitalism? Yes. Is climate change urgent? Yes.
Moot points with maniacal racist misogynistic sociopath in power for another 4 years. The focus has to be on getting him out and supporting downballot senators in swing states.

It's not moot, and this is the exact mistake that people keep making. They keep getting tangled up in identity politics and party agendas instead of demanding real change. "Vote blue no matter who," "What matters is to win elections," "The only priority is that Trump doesn't get reelected." It's demonstrably not true, neither on a national nor on a global scale. It's just the system that created Trump telling you that if you don't keep voting for said system you're actively supporting him. What the hell is the point of winning elections if the president ends up being another oligarch-backed right-wing war criminal who'll keep working for systematic injustice? Or if the seats in congress keep getting filled by miserable neocons? People have to stand up and tell them that what they're doing is not acceptable. The issue is not the GOP; there's no way to control their agenda from the left. The issue is that the things the Democratic party stands for need to change.

Daz

You're completely right Klaus. Too many people in the US and elsewhere treat politics like a sport where the main thing that matters is that their beats the other team and gives them bragging rights. There's not enough consideration of the big picture policy implications.

jones

Exactly. Replacing the cheeto in chief with a neocon with a Raytheon hand up his arse when his lips move is not an improvement. And that was actually Biden before he lost his marbles, God knows what the demented version will do given the chance

Burnwinter

If the focus was on getting Trump out then Sanders would be the nominee. The centre is strangely convinced of its special electability during a period where business as usual would be immoderate.

Gazza M

Burnwinter wrote:
If the focus was on getting Trump out then Sanders would be the nominee. The centre is strangely convinced of its special electability during a period where business as usual would be immoderate.

Considering the party and the machine behind it has shown itself to be nakedly anti-sanders, he probably isn't the guy to beat trump. Its frustrating because everyone is running around with their hair on fire about beating trump, with little to no aclnowledgement of the conditions that allowed such a charlatan into office in the first place. In the wake of the 2016 election I recall the liberal media actually sobering up the coastal bubble, about the wine caves, about laughing down their nose at people who said the numbers showed the race tightening towards the end. Doesnt seem to be any lessons learned

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