Circus circa 2020: Page 26 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Circus circa 2020

Gazza M

Burnwinter wrote:
It's really hard to tell what the ideological momentum of these popular surges inside major parties is.

Take a look at UK Labour. The relatively moderate Keir Starmer is easily leading the left candidate Rebecca Long-Bailey in the race to succeed Jeremy Corbyn, despite the ranks of members who joined when Corbyn took the leadership.

The next GOP leader is highly likely to be managed by the establishment as well.

The thing that would push the ideological territory left in the US, if it were to happen, would be the successful delivery of some of Sanders' promises. I'm a bit sceptical that will happen.

Some of his proposals can be done by executive order, some will be an ideological shitfight in the house/senate, and some like his green new deal have some infrastructural holes that make them appear impractical i.e pivoting almost entirely to wind and solar in the space of 10 years when studies have shown that while that's an admirable goal, complete reliance on wind and solar is fraught with practial and economic challenges

KingslandBarge

Segway wrote:
Female candidates in general have a problem, sadly... The debates are staged like boxing matches and if you surround a woman with grumpy old men who is swinging at everyone left and right, she is going to have a hard time avoiding sounding shrill and desperate when she wants to assert herself.

Very true.

goon

Burnwinter wrote:
It's really hard to tell what the ideological momentum of these popular surges inside major parties is.

Take a look at UK Labour. The relatively moderate Keir Starmer is easily leading the left candidate Rebecca Long-Bailey in the race to succeed Jeremy Corbyn, despite the ranks of members who joined when Corbyn took the leadership.

The next GOP leader is highly likely to be managed by the establishment as well.

The thing that would push the ideological territory left in the US, if it were to happen, would be the successful delivery of some of Sanders' promises. I'm a bit sceptical that will happen.

It's worth bearing in mind though that Starmer is running on a platform that's considerably to the left of anyone pre-Corbyn, in fact he's adopted Corbyn's 2017 manifesto. So although many mock Corbyn's 'we won the argument' line, he's probably right at leastas far as Labour itself is concerned, because even the moderates have shifted to the left ideologically.

Hard to know if the same would apply to the US, but I think it will in the long run. Ideas that seem crazy will eventually start to become normalised you would hope.

Coombs

Or at least back to the centre(ish).

The word moderate is very insidious. Really dislike it. It's literally never true in politics.

jones

I find it interesting how the centre or focus of debate here has shifted since 2016. Back then I was considered crass for calling Hillary Obama Holder etc out as the crooked rats they are now Warren is (rightfully) slammed for being a hawk in a dove costume. Not trying to toot my own horn I just wonder if there's been a shift in OMIT stances overall or whether it's mostly different people discussing stuff here.

Burnwinter

goon wrote:
It's worth bearing in mind though that Starmer is running on a platform that's considerably to the left of anyone pre-Corbyn, in fact he's adopted Corbyn's 2017 manifesto. So although many mock Corbyn's 'we won the argument' line, he's probably right at leastas far as Labour itself is concerned, because even the moderates have shifted to the left ideologically.

Hard to know if the same would apply to the US, but I think it will in the long run. Ideas that seem crazy will eventually start to become normalised you would hope.

True, but it's also true that it doesn't really matter what Starmer says now as a test at the polls is a long way off. I do think social democracy is having a long overdue moment, unfortunately for them, developed nations can't have Fordism back due to the changed composition of the global economy. It's encouraging that Sanders' campaigns tactics and "working class optics" on his current campaign are so much more diverse.

Burnwinter

jones wrote:
I find it interesting how the centre or focus of debate here has shifted since 2016. Back then I was considered crass for calling Hillary Obama Holder etc out as the crooked rats they are now Warren is (rightfully) slammed for being a hawk in a dove costume. Not trying to toot my own horn I just wonder if there's been a shift in OMIT stances overall or whether it's mostly different people discussing stuff here.

A number of our right-leaning or moderate posters have become less active over the years after a whole series of contentious threads. Kel, Irish, Asa, Y etc. Depending on your perspective, strident lefties are no fun, the truth hurts, or both I guess. It's a shame that lot are not posting more (PS I'm not saying they share the same politics or are "right wing" per se).

Coombs

jones wrote:
I find it interesting how the centre or focus of debate here has shifted since 2016. Back then I was considered crass for calling Hillary Obama Holder etc out as the crooked rats they are now Warren is (rightfully) slammed for being a hawk in a dove costume. Not trying to toot my own horn I just wonder if there's been a shift in OMIT stances overall or whether it's mostly different people discussing stuff here.

I mean, I still don't agree with some of the ways you are characterizing people. The truth was never "somewhere in the middle" like people like to say, but it also wasn't in blanket condemnation.

If Warren were the nominee I'd vote for her, and I couldn't care one iota about the democratic party. I also don't think that voting for someone, or even supporting them in any way, is a wholesale commitment to insisting that their shit doesn't stink.

You gotta take it as it comes, nobody ever changed the world by being right about everything. Give it a rest.

y va marquer

Burnwinter wrote:
jones wrote:
I find it interesting how the centre or focus of debate here has shifted since 2016. Back then I was considered crass for calling Hillary Obama Holder etc out as the crooked rats they are now Warren is (rightfully) slammed for being a hawk in a dove costume. Not trying to toot my own horn I just wonder if there's been a shift in OMIT stances overall or whether it's mostly different people discussing stuff here.

A number of our right-leaning or moderate posters have become less active over the years after a whole series of contentious threads. Kel, Irish, Asa, Y etc. Depending on your perspective, strident lefties are no fun, the truth hurts, or both I guess. It's a shame that lot are not posting more (PS I'm not saying they share the same politics or are "right wing" per se).

The reason I don't post is exactly this - having my half realised thoughts viewed on here through the narrow prism of some boxing up and characterisation of where I can be fitted in this right to left line that a core group on here agree upon. It's a convenient way to assess opinions and dismiss a person. Living pathologically inside thought buckets and getting reinforced in the belief that a right to left category explains why people act and speak as they do, it's just exhausting to listen to and engage with.
It's like the political wing of the "are you pro or anti Wenger" that fails to recognise that people just cannot be categorised so easily, taking a fraction of what somebody is based on some posts on a forum and assuming that as a basis to form this fixed sense of who they are.
I think it's a form of snobbery.
I wasn't immune to this thinking when I posted and it led me to post things that I'm quite ashamed of.
I think you're all a good crew but just don't have any craic or positive experiences posting.

Burnwinter

Eh, honestly Y. That's off the mark and by flinging around hostile phrases like "living pathologically inside thought buckets" you sound like the person you think you're criticising.

I qualified what I said above and also expressed regret you don't post more. Coming back with a bunch of supercilious insults ... go for it I guess.

Qwiss

Coombs wrote:
jones wrote:
I find it interesting how the centre or focus of debate here has shifted since 2016. Back then I was considered crass for calling Hillary Obama Holder etc out as the crooked rats they are now Warren is (rightfully) slammed for being a hawk in a dove costume. Not trying to toot my own horn I just wonder if there's been a shift in OMIT stances overall or whether it's mostly different people discussing stuff here.

I mean, I still don't agree with some of the ways you are characterizing people. The truth was never "somewhere in the middle" like people like to say, but it also wasn't in blanket condemnation.

If Warren were the nominee I'd vote for her, and I couldn't care one iota about the democratic party. I also don't think that voting for someone, or even supporting them in any way, is a wholesale commitment to insisting that their shit doesn't stink.

You gotta take it as it comes, nobody ever changed the world by being right about everything. Give it a rest.

If I was a yank and Warren ran I'd vote for her, I wouldn't be happy about it but I'd do it. I wouldn't leave my house to vote for Bloomberg, Biden, Buttigieg, etc though and I wouldn't have voted for Hillary. Warren is a snake, I wouldn't trust her but at least shes making some motions towards positive change, even if its very small incrementalist stuff.

On Jones point I was in agreement with him then and am now. Whats interesting is that 4 years ago Warren was considered too radical and left wing by the DNC. Now they'd give anything to have her instead of Bernie. I think generally there is a shift in politics. The left is growing. Corbyn may have lost the election but he's realigned the British left, Sanders has re-aligned the American left, we've just had the best election ever for the left here in Ireland and I think we'll see a trend continue across Europe over the coming years.

Klaus

I personally think Corbyn lost traction the moment he stopped offering opposition to the tories. And the big political question of the last four years was Brexit, for right and wrong. Labour's handwringing over whether they opposed it or not felt like his unmaking, not his platform in general.

y va marquer

Burnwinter wrote:
Eh, honestly Y. That's off the mark and by flinging around hostile phrases like "living pathologically inside thought buckets" you sound like the person you think you're criticising.

I qualified what I said above and also expressed regret you don't post more. Coming back with a bunch of supercilious insults ... go for it I guess.

Bw you reduced a whole bunch of individual characters to "[font=Source Sans Pro]right-leaning or moderate".[/font]

That you qualified it with a PS nod towards us not being as one or entirely right wing doesn't alter the fact that you lumped us into a category.

[font=Source Sans Pro]The contempt in which people who are classed as right leaning or centrist flies from every page in these political threads so to be tagged as such around here sure ain't a compliment.[/font]

You don't see the insults you hand out but you see insult in my reaction to it.
I didn't mean to insult but I definitely meant to criticize.

arsedocmd

Bernie initials come to straight BS- classic.

Claudius

The blacks who act the fool for Trump like these two and Joy Villa are so embarrassing

arsedocmd

Why?

Gazza M

Steyer has quietly been an interesting side show. Making monetary reparations for descendants of slaves a central policy pillar isn't something you see often

arsedocmd

The stunning irony in the clip.."that's what intelligence is about"

flobaba

Gazza M wrote:
Steyer has quietly been an interesting side show. Making monetary reparations for descendants of slaves a central policy pillar isn't something you see often

Ja. It’s called pandering.

Claudius

It’s an interesting position. The question is do african Americans need reparations? Or do they just need acknowledgement of the wrongs of the past and fixes to instances of systemic racism in the legal system, housing market, job market etc? Reparations sound good but do they address the problem? Does Steyer understand that?

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