Champions League 2018/2019: Page 82 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Champions League 2018/2019

Proof

flobaba wrote:
Barcelona is a team of all round world class players. It makes it much easier for Messi to do his thing in that squad. That’s why he has question marks around him still till this day - he doesn’t do the same for Argentina.

Exactly. The multiple Golden Shoe winner, Argentina's and La Liga's all-time goalscorer, the top goalscorer for club and country in a calendar year, the man with the most goals in WC qualifiers has FAILED to score and lost in four major finals with Argentina and missed a penalty on top of that. He also never scored in the KO stages of a World Cup. You can't be the best ever and have such a horrendous record with your national team. I know it's nitpicking but that's what you do when you are talking about the GOAT debate. He's top five all time but definitely not the best.

Proof

Mirth wrote:
Peak Suarez is the best striker of the last decade.

Seriously ? Better than Ibrahimović ? I don't think so.

Mirth

Proof wrote:
Mirth wrote:
Peak Suarez is the best striker of the last decade.

Seriously ? Better than Ibrahimović ? I don't think so.

Hmm...forgot about Ibrahamovic. Fair shout, but then again it's not a hugely controversial claim either way. They're different players as their respective time at Barcelona would attest to.

jones

Proof wrote:
flobaba wrote:
Barcelona is a team of all round world class players. It makes it much easier for Messi to do his thing in that squad. That’s why he has question marks around him still till this day - he doesn’t do the same for Argentina.

Exactly. The multiple Golden Shoe winner, Argentina's and La Liga's all-time goalscorer, the top goalscorer for club and country in a calendar year, the man with the most goals in WC qualifiers has FAILED to score and lost in four major finals with Argentina and missed a penalty on top of that. He also never scored in the KO stages of a World Cup. You can't be the best ever and have such a horrendous record with your national team. I know it's nitpicking but that's what you do when you are talking about the GOAT debate. He's top five all time but definitely not the best.

So if Higuain or Aguero score one of their dozen or so chances he put on a platter for them vs Germany or Chile 2x he becomes the best ever?

Also what's the 4th major final in which he FAILED?

Claudius

Man dominates club football for over a decade. Doesn’t do as well with his national team which meets every so often for knockout games, and makes a few finals. We use the latter as reasoning that he’s not really that great after all.

QuincyAbeyie

He should've chosen Spain, then he'd be the best.

flobaba

I actually think he IS the best ever. I only bring up his national team performances and results to point out that the quality of team and tactical set up around him at Barcelona helps him thrive as well.

@[deleted]. He has had his chances. Let’s not minimize international competition. Even the Copa America has been won by less talented sides in his era. And of course his rival Ronaldo helped Portugal to international success as well so it’s not unreasonable to expect that a player as great as Messi should do the same for Argentina

Mirth

I think Messi would be the first to tell you that he failed with the national team and he's not reached the same levels with them as he has at Barcelona. That's partly down to him, even though the AFA have been god awful and corrupt over the past decade.

But there's a disproportionate weighting given towards international football anyway, the Messi at Barcelona plays at a level that far surpasses anything any other footballer has shown in my lifetime. And that's what's special to me. Personally I would feel cheated if he moved to - say - Bayern or Juventus, won a couple of league titles to prove his 'versatility' despite performing at a lower level because his teammates are not on the same wavelength or whatever.

flobaba

Gazza M wrote:
defies physics is a good way to describe it. he's the only player that has me saying "How?!?!" everytime how watch him play

He has a vastly superior footballing IQ, as well as incredible reflexes and ball technique.

I always say a team of 11 Messi’s would be the most entertaining thing to watch ever.

QuincyAbeyie

flobaba wrote:
And of course his rival Ronaldo helped Portugal to international success as well so it’s not unreasonable to expect that a player as great as Messi should do the same for Argentina

That's my favorite example of why this shouldn't be given much weight. Messi has lost several finals, Portugal won one without Ronaldo playing (after 17 minutes) and it's used as an example of Ronaldo's success for the national team. By applying this to Messi, if he didn't play those finals and Argentina won, then he'd have a better claim on the "best player of all time" than he does now. That doesn't make sense to me.

flobaba

Yes, in football, as in life, perception is everything.

Ricky1985

Claudius wrote:
Quincy Abeyie wrote:
The Suarez we see nowadays is far from that though. He still scores goals, but he ruins a big amount of attacks every match. They'll be looking to replace him in the summer.

Yeah. We aren’t seeing the Suarez of around two or three years ago. That was an assassin. He looks slower, less decisive. You saw it on Messi’s open play goal and some of the counters.

Suarez actually tried something outrageous for Messi's 1st ("open play goal"). The knee he used to lob the ball over Alisson was entirely intentional. He missed, but it was still a testament to what a clever, cocky little blighter he is.

He has always had a certain clumsiness in his dribbling and even his touch at times: He has a remarkable ability to bundle his way through challenges. It's his trademark. And he did mess a few good situations up. So did Messi on one or two occasions. But don't doubt that last night that big cheaty Uruguayan had one hell of a game.

Matip and van Dijk didn't know what had hit them.

Ricky1985

Claudius wrote:
Man dominates club football for over a decade. Doesn’t do as well with his national team which meets every so often for knockout games, and makes a few finals. We use the latter as reasoning that he’s not really that great after all.

And club football is the be all and end all. The quality at the top end of club football makes the latter stages of international tournaments look like pub football.

Argentina are a disastrously run national team, the teams they've fielded in the past 10 years or so, and the shambolic way in which they've appointed head coaches that either do not deserve the role or have bombed regardless, means that criticism of Messi is weak, to say the least. Especially considering they've reached numerous finals in his time.

Temo

Proof wrote:
Mirth wrote:
Peak Suarez is the best striker of the last decade.

Seriously ? Better than Ibrahimović ? I don't think so.

Going to get shot down for this, but fuck it. I think RvP was the most talented striker of the last decade, and the best at his peak.

Qwiss

He wasn't even the best PL striker of the last decade.

Qwiss

Ricky1985 wrote:
Liverpool were really basic and predictable tonight. If they couldn't hit the early long ball into the channel they had almost no way of opening up what is a weak Barcelona defensive set-up.

Seems like they're going to win nothing after all. I fancied them to win the League somehow even though City look nailed on, but I think they might lose at Newcastle on Saturday evening now.

I reckon they just bottled it. They'd quite a few good chances and failed to score. If they'd managed to make 1-1 the game would have becoming much more edgy and they might have got a draw or even losing 2-1 would have been a decent result. I thought the commentators way overrated Liverpool's performance though, made it sound like they were the equals of Barcelona, they were not.

MuswellHillGooner

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
flobaba wrote:
And of course his rival Ronaldo helped Portugal to international success as well so it’s not unreasonable to expect that a player as great as Messi should do the same for Argentina

That's my favorite example of why this shouldn't be given much weight. Messi has lost several finals, Portugal won one without Ronaldo playing (after 17 minutes) and it's used as an example of Ronaldo's success for the national team. By applying this to Messi, if he didn't play those finals and Argentina won, then he'd have a better claim on the "best player of all time" than he does now. That doesn't make sense to me.

http://messivsronaldo.net

Clrnc

Suarez is the best number 9 of the last decade for me, no contest. And I'm still bitter we didn't get that cheat. We absolutely needed someone of that endeavor.

I actually agree the Barcelona players are past their peak, some of them, and isn't as good as their treble winning sides for example or even their last UCL win team. But Busquets, Alba are still the best in their position. Ter Stegen, Pique are very close to the best, with the rest of them easily top 10 players in their position. They are still way above us, make no mistake about it. They are 3 or 4 leagues above us. Their bench players will start for us

Coombs

Well, one of them is here and didn't manage to start.

Tam

😆

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