The Ozil Money Pit: Page 36 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

The Ozil Money Pit

QuincyAbeyie

jones wrote:
Klaus wrote:
Eh, he can fuck off for all I care. I'm certainly not going to support him over players who have contributed with way more to this club than he has.

Nobody said anything of supporting A over B. He's the manager of the club we support, he's made some decisions some of us don't like. For me that's not a reason to call for his head if it is for others that's fine. I just think calling/comparing him to Mourinho, a man that any sane Arsenal supporter should despise for dozens of reasons is taking it too far.

He doesn't really believe that. He's even said himself that Emery seems like a good person, and the worst part of Mourinho is without a doubt that he's a garbage person.

Klaus

I was talking about the football philosophies of Mourinho and Benitez.

DiabyKungFu

Unai Emery is most definitely a garbage person.* Hard to say that that's the "worst part" about him though. He also seems to be an uninteresting idiot as well.

No need to look much further than the ridiculously toxic passive-aggressiveness involved in that empty USB story that did the rounds when he was hired.

flobaba

Ah, this is so unnecessary. Who are you guys?

Claudius

Apparently, Emery is a refuse collector

Clrnc

Mirth wrote:
Claudius wrote:
Cech is one of the captains. Started the season. Played much longer than his talents demanded, which was fine given his seniority. And then was rightly succeeded by the ebtter man

Yep, don't have an issue with Cech being dropped. I'm cautiously optimistic that Leno will be a very good keeper by this time next year.

Just saying that the captaincy thing wasn't any particular indicator of faith or goodwill for Emery which you've implied.

Leno is already way better a keeper than Cech's entire Arsenal career so I fully agree with Emery playing him. Should have played him from the start in fact.

And Ozil has been really terrible consistently for many years now (really only had one consistently good half a year with us), so dropping him is not Emery's fault. Probably any manager worth their salt would drop players based on merit.

The football really hasnt been positive but I will give him at least a 2nd year with more of his kind of players to prove his worth

Bold Tone

Jed

Diaby KungFu wrote:
Unai Emery is most definitely a garbage person.* Hard to say that that's the "worst part" about him though. He also seems to be an uninteresting idiot as well.

No need to look much further than the ridiculously toxic passive-aggressiveness involved in that empty USB story that did the rounds when he was hired.

I'm all for criticizing his managerial skills but is this necessary? Completely invalidates your arguments against him.

Gurgen

Clrnc wrote:
Mirth wrote:
Yep, don't have an issue with Cech being dropped. I'm cautiously optimistic that Leno will be a very good keeper by this time next year.

Just saying that the captaincy thing wasn't any particular indicator of faith or goodwill for Emery which you've implied.

Leno is already way better a keeper than Cech's entire Arsenal career so I fully agree with Emery playing him. Should have played him from the start in fact.

And Ozil has been really terrible consistently for many years now (really only had one consistently good half a year with us), so dropping him is not Emery's fault. Probably any manager worth their salt would drop players based on merit.

The football really hasnt been positive but I will give him at least a 2nd year with more of his kind of players to prove his worth

Özil has been quite consistent and has done what he's good at for a long time now: create chances. He's far from perfect but he's been our best player or one of our best players in every season he's been at the club. What's so incredibly frustrating about this debate is that people simply refuse to even consider the possibility that their perceptions of performances are warped and that there are better methods to ascertain whether someone is playing well than watching a game, once, and then watching some pundit who has also watched the game (once, or highlights) produce an endless number of cliches. Instead, they just shit on an introvert because his 'body language' is wrong and he looks 'lazy'. It's like Kahneman and Tversky never lived and Moneyball was never written. Football is such a fucking dinosaur pit.

Gazza M

his form has nose-dived in the last 18 months. that's got nothing to do with body language or tin-pot pundit analysis

Klaus

Gurgen is right though, he was our best player for the first half of last season. I'm sure people can go back and look at threads themselves if they feel like digging, but he was driving the team. Ramsey was mostly injured and Laca mostly misfired. Özil was one of few good points. Virtually no one wanted him to leave. Ramsey and Monreal had a resurgence during the second half, but those three were the standout performers. These "he's been shit for two seasons now" statements that people throw around simply aren't true.

goon

Yeah he was brilliant up until he signed the new deal (not suggesting that's why his form dipped). You only have to go look at the pure joy when he signed his new contract.

I don't even think he's been that bad this season. He's struggled a little out wide and also with the focus on playing through the wings when playing at 10, but he had been no worse than anyone else. Since then he's been starting a game once every 2-3 weeks, no way to build up any sort of form.

The narrative when he was starting was that he wasn't good enough for someone on 350k a week, now it's somehow changed to he's plain not good enough. Couldn't be more wrong in my opinion. If Emery doesn't fancy him or the club want's his wages off the books that's fine, but I think we have to use his talent from now to the end of the season if we want to give ourselves the best chance of getting top four.

Mirth

goon wrote:
The narrative when he was starting was that he wasn't good enough for someone on 350k a week, now it's somehow changed to he's plain not good enough. Couldn't be more wrong in my opinion. If Emery doesn't fancy him or the club want's his wages off the books that's fine, but I think we have to use his talent from now to the end of the season if we want to give ourselves the best chance of getting top four.

Agree - he's not worth the £350k and looking back I wish we never caved in to his demands.

But he's a good player and should be a feature of our match day squads even if he's no longer the lynch pin. To act as if he doesn't even exist in order to make some wider point is not in the interest of the football club nor is it particularly pragmatic.

jones

goon wrote:
Yeah he was brilliant up until he signed the new deal (not suggesting that's why his form dipped). You only have to go look at the pure joy when he signed his new contract.

I don't even think he's been that bad this season. He's struggled a little out wide and also with the focus on playing through the wings when playing at 10, but he had been no worse than anyone else. Since then he's been starting a game once every 2-3 weeks, no way to build up any sort of form.

The narrative when he was starting was that he wasn't good enough for someone on 350k a week, now it's somehow changed to he's plain not good enough. Couldn't be more wrong in my opinion. If Emery doesn't fancy him or the club want's his wages off the books that's fine, but I think we have to use his talent from now to the end of the season if we want to give ourselves the best chance of getting top four.

I disagree. I think he wasn't good enough to start this season full stop, not relative to the wages he's on. I don't want an Özil who plays to the cameras and pundits but he was blatantly coasting through many games. Genuinely think Mkhitaryan and Iwobi have had better seasons so far.

I also disagree that he was anything close to "brilliant" in the first half of last season. He was definitely a lot better than he is this season but already distinctly worse than any of his seasons at the club before. His first season he had good link up with Ramsey and Giroud, his second with Alexis, his third he would have won POTS if it weren't for Wenger's refusal to buy a striker, in 16/17 he got his third FA Cup and was double digits in goals and assists. From there it was mostly downhill

And before I'm accused of being an Özil hater again I've been a fan of his since before I've watched him star in a 5-0 defeat of my home club on our own ground ten years ago. I also agree that our best chances to get top four (or the EL) is if we utilise his talent properly. However let's not act as if Özil was doing well when Emery started dropping him - he's been poor most games this season. He's not past it in any way as we've seen vs Leicester but it's up to him to pull his finger out and force Emery's hand, because at the moment he's clearly not doing enough on matchdays or in training. Don't doubt for a second Emery would use him if he showed better form, why would he handicap himself and risk missing out on the CL even losing his job just to make some point.

Clrnc

jones wrote:
goon wrote:
Yeah he was brilliant up until he signed the new deal (not suggesting that's why his form dipped). You only have to go look at the pure joy when he signed his new contract.

I don't even think he's been that bad this season. He's struggled a little out wide and also with the focus on playing through the wings when playing at 10, but he had been no worse than anyone else. Since then he's been starting a game once every 2-3 weeks, no way to build up any sort of form.

The narrative when he was starting was that he wasn't good enough for someone on 350k a week, now it's somehow changed to he's plain not good enough. Couldn't be more wrong in my opinion. If Emery doesn't fancy him or the club want's his wages off the books that's fine, but I think we have to use his talent from now to the end of the season if we want to give ourselves the best chance of getting top four.

I disagree. I think he wasn't good enough to start this season full stop, not relative to the wages he's on. I don't want an Özil who plays to the cameras and pundits but he was blatantly coasting through many games. Genuinely think Mkhitaryan and Iwobi have had better seasons so far.

I also disagree that he was anything close to "brilliant" in the first half of last season. He was definitely a lot better than he is this season but already distinctly worse than any of his seasons at the club before. His first season he had good link up with Ramsey and Özil, his second with Alexis, his third he would have won POTS if it weren't for Wenger's refusal to buy a striker, in 16/17 he got his third FA Cup and was double digits in goals and assists. From there it was mostly downhill

And before I'm accused of being an Özil hater again I've been a fan of his since before I've watched him star in a 5-0 defeat of my home club on our own ground ten years ago. I also agree that our best chances to get top four (or the EL) is if we utilise his talent properly. However let's not act as if Özil was doing well when Emery started dropping him - he's been poor most games this season. He's not past it in any way as we've seen vs Leicester but it's up to him to pull his finger out and force Emery's hand, because at the moment he's clearly not doing enough on matchdays or in training. Don't doubt for a second Emery would use him if he showed better form, why would he handicap himself and risk missing out on the CL even losing his job just to make some point.

That's fair enough.

MuswellHillGooner

goon wrote:
Yeah he was brilliant up until he signed the new deal (not suggesting that's why his form dipped). You only have to go look at the pure joy when he signed his new contract.

I don't even think he's been that bad this season. He's struggled a little out wide and also with the focus on playing through the wings when playing at 10, but he had been no worse than anyone else. Since then he's been starting a game once every 2-3 weeks, no way to build up any sort of form.

The narrative when he was starting was that he wasn't good enough for someone on 350k a week, now it's somehow changed to he's plain not good enough. Couldn't be more wrong in my opinion. If Emery doesn't fancy him or the club want's his wages off the books that's fine, but I think we have to use his talent from now to the end of the season if we want to give ourselves the best chance of getting top four.

Spot on.
Yes he hasn't produced the standards we expect from his skill, yes he doesn't go in for 50:50 balls like Jack Wilshere, yes he was injured far too often but he has never been the shitster adrian durham types describe him.

Qwiss

Gazza M wrote:
his form has nose-dived in the last 18 months. that's got nothing to do with body language or tin-pot pundit analysis

Yep and it happened well before he got that crazy contract. People are trying to rewrite history to suit their agenda against Emery.

Gurgen

So even if he has been as poor as you claim (although it's a claim for which neither of you has produced any factual basis) he's still been better than whoever Emery has been playing.

QuincyAbeyie

I knew it. Xhaka is our most important player.

Klaus

He probably is our most important midfielder to be fair (and in itself that's an excellent reason to upgrade him). He's ahead in this statistic because he has played twice as many minutes though.

I think we've seen the effect in recent months of not creating enough chances. With or without Özil it's still an issue, but every single stat points to it being a bigger issue without him.

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