The new guy - Wengs replacement: Page 14 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

The new guy - Wengs replacement

BWoolley

I'd sell Bellerin too, if we can get something like 40-50M for him. Much rather have that for Malcom/Fekir and a functioning MF.

Klaus

Burnwinter wrote:
😆 Delete your account Klaus, too rude. 🙂

🙂

Burnwinter wrote:
If he'd walked earlier we might be the ones watching Salah pick up Player of the Year. Instead he chose to stay and as you've just been cogently arguing yourself, will leave us with significantly depleted funds and a threadbare squad.

I don't think that one's on Wenger's head though. There's nothing to suggest that Salah was even recommended to him. For whatever reason English clubs don't like Serie A players. I said last summer that the rest of the top clubs in Premier League would regret not going for Salah, and yet Liverpool were the only ones who even tabled a bid. He scored 45 goals and assisted around 30 from the wing in 2.5 seasons in Italy. At 24 you'd think he would've been hot property on the market, but United, Arsenal, Chelsea, City, Spurs... no one wanted him. Roma have another player in Nainggolan right now who would instantly be the best midfielder in Premier League, and the only ones who have bid on him is a Chinese club. If someone figures out what's going on here I'd love to know.

There is definitely a lesson to be learned from the Salah transfer, but I think it concerns our scouts a lot more than the manager. We've been the worst top club in the world bar none over the last 5-6 years when it comes to identifying players. The only two top players we managed to attract basically fell into our lap, and they only signed for us because of Wenger. On the other hand the scouts told him not to sign Griezmann even though Wenger was keen. They told him there was no point in getting Kanté. They even went back to watch him a few times to make sure. When we needed to replace Per like three years ago they told us to get Gabriel. Wenger asked about Umtiti whom he had noticed playing for Lyon, and they told him Gabriel was a better bet. It's such an extraordinary level of incompetence. Luckily we've put a lot of money and effort into restructuring the whole scouting setup.

Bring Back Kerrea Gilbert

Definitely. Bellerin has been an enormous let-down. Only IF we can get big money for him would it be worth getting rid, though.

Bring Back Kerrea Gilbert

Klaus wrote:
Burnwinter wrote:
😆 Delete your account Klaus, too rude. 🙂

🙂

Burnwinter wrote:
If he'd walked earlier we might be the ones watching Salah pick up Player of the Year. Instead he chose to stay and as you've just been cogently arguing yourself, will leave us with significantly depleted funds and a threadbare squad.

I don't think that one's on Wenger's head though. There's nothing to suggest that Salah was even recommended to him. For whatever reason English clubs don't like Serie A players. I said last summer that the rest of the top clubs in Premier League would regret not going for Salah, and yet Liverpool were the only ones who even tabled a bid. He scored 45 goals and assisted around 30 from the wing in 2.5 seasons in Italy. At 24 you'd think he would've been hot property on the market, but United, Arsenal, Chelsea, City, Spurs... no one wanted him. Roma have another player in Nainggolan right now who would instantly be the best midfielder in Premier League, and the only ones who have bid on him is a Chinese club. If someone figures out what's going on here I'd love to know.

There is definitely a lesson to be learned from the Salah transfer, but I think it concerns our scouts a lot more than the manager. We've been the worst top club in the world bar none over the last 5-6 years when it comes to identifying players. The only two top players we managed to attract basically fell into our lap, and they only signed for us because of Wenger. On the other hand the scouts told him not to sign Griezmann even though Wenger was keen. They told him there was no point in getting Kanté. They even went back to watch him a few times to make sure. When we needed to replace Per like three years ago they told us to get Gabriel. Wenger asked about Umtiti whom he had noticed playing for Lyon, and they told him Gabriel was a better bet. It's such an extraordinary level of incompetence. Luckily we've put a lot of money and effort into restructuring the whole scouting setup.

Great post.

MistaT

Any interest in Rafa Benitez?

I doubt he'd be a front runner, but he's apparently conflicted about his future at Newcastle as he doubts there's incoming investment. Seems to enjoy a project - which I think we'll be post Wenger - and he'd certainly alleviate some of the laissez faire approach we have to games.

jones

Klaus wrote:
Burnwinter wrote:
😆 Delete your account Klaus, too rude. 🙂

🙂

Burnwinter wrote:
If he'd walked earlier we might be the ones watching Salah pick up Player of the Year. Instead he chose to stay and as you've just been cogently arguing yourself, will leave us with significantly depleted funds and a threadbare squad.

I don't think that one's on Wenger's head though. There's nothing to suggest that Salah was even recommended to him. For whatever reason English clubs don't like Serie A players. I said last summer that the rest of the top clubs in Premier League would regret not going for Salah, and yet Liverpool were the only ones who even tabled a bid. He scored 45 goals and assisted around 30 from the wing in 2.5 seasons in Italy. At 24 you'd think he would've been hot property on the market, but United, Arsenal, Chelsea, City, Spurs... no one wanted him. Roma have another player in Nainggolan right now who would instantly be the best midfielder in Premier League, and the only ones who have bid on him is a Chinese club. If someone figures out what's going on here I'd love to know.

There is definitely a lesson to be learned from the Salah transfer, but I think it concerns our scouts a lot more than the manager. We've been the worst top club in the world bar none over the last 5-6 years when it comes to identifying players. The only two top players we managed to attract basically fell into our lap, and they only signed for us because of Wenger. On the other hand the scouts told him not to sign Griezmann even though Wenger was keen. They told him there was no point in getting Kanté. They even went back to watch him a few times to make sure. When we needed to replace Per like three years ago they told us to get Gabriel. Wenger asked about Umtiti whom he had noticed playing for Lyon, and they told him Gabriel was a better bet. It's such an extraordinary level of incompetence. Luckily we've put a lot of money and effort into restructuring the whole scouting setup.

Let's not exonerate Wenger here though, even disregarding his absent coaching ultimately he makes the calls and what's more he's the one scouting guys in training every day. I remember that Griezmann story, it was the guys who sold him the fraud statDNA malware who convinced him that Griezmann would be poor business - when everyone who watched even a little Erreala knew that this guy was no flash in the pan.

Also in fact we did come back to sign him in 2013 as he stated himself in his biography, he was ecstatic about joining us and told his agent to ignore all other offers. When his agent called Grimandi when the transfer window was about to close he told him to keep waiting, until on deadline day the club told him there would be no transfer. Unless Wenger takes orders from Grimandi I'm pretty sure there's no way to blame the scouting for this one.

Klaus

jonesy: Sure. I have very little time for the Wenger we've seen in the last few years. I think his biggest weakness has always been that he compromises way too much with his own beliefs, and going back and forth on transfers is probably one of the symptoms. I also recognise the state of this club though. We've been a mess all across the board for so long. We could have sacked him in 2014 and there would still have been a reckoning coming. In the early 00s our success was built on being ahead of the curve with state of the art training pitches, an ambitious scouting system, and physios with extensive knowledge about nutrition, conditioning and muscle tissue recovery. As little as two years ago London Colney was falling to pieces, our medical team believed in shamans and osteopaths, and the scouting department was a living proof that the saying "Even a blind monkey can find a banana" is absolute bunk.

jones

I can certainly agree with all of that - well I don't think all forms of osteopathy are charlatanerie but that's not really the point.

Our club has been an almost textbook example of extreme ineptitude in large corporations. I used to think because a company or organisation is large and/or profitable it has to be well run or at least have professionals in charge but time and time again have I seen examples of firms which dwarf Arsenal Holdings plc with complete and utter morons running whole departments or in the board of directors. Our club has Americans and fossils in charge whose last contact with the real world was in the Palaeolithic and whose connection to football is either because they inherited the shares from their ancestors or in Kroenke Jrs case because they got a Panini Soccer sticker album with their McDonald's Big Mac menu. We can only pray that Mislintat and Sanllehi can now operate without a lot of interference from them.

Tony Montana

goon wrote:
I don't think £50m net spend is anywhere near as bad as folks on here are making out.

Here's average net spend over the last 5 years in the PL:

http://www.transferleague.co.uk/premier-league-last-five-seasons/transfer-league-tables/premier-league-table-last-five-seasons

Now I know fee's have gone up considerably in the last couple of years, but that works both ways, e.g getting 60m for Ox and Theo. As Jones and Clarence point out, we just need to be a lot smarter.

From that table Liverpool have got the most bang for their buck (other than City) and we're not getting in value what we spend.

DiabyKungFu

Tony Montana wrote:
goon wrote:
I don't think £50m net spend is anywhere near as bad as folks on here are making out.

Here's average net spend over the last 5 years in the PL:

http://www.transferleague.co.uk/premier-league-last-five-seasons/transfer-league-tables/premier-league-table-last-five-seasons

Now I know fee's have gone up considerably in the last couple of years, but that works both ways, e.g getting 60m for Ox and Theo. As Jones and Clarence point out, we just need to be a lot smarter.

From that table Liverpool have got the most bang for their buck (other than City) and we're not getting in value what we spend.

Yeah, if you're not serious about going financially toe-to-toe with the likes of Madrid, Barca, etc. then the smartest thing you can possibly do is invest in young talented players. There once was a time when Arsenal knew this, but it seems this knowledge has been lost somewhere along the way. Hopefully we find it again under the new regime.

ohboy

The post here are great. I can only hope the new powers in charge are thinking in a similar vein.

It is not the big transfer I’m worried about, it is about identifying the next wave, before they become household names. It is about getting the next dm to anchor our midfield, it is about getting a young player who can actually pass the ball and control the play. Hopefully acquiring a playing who can actually dribble and beat his man.

I can’t wait to see what happens starting this summer.

Mirth

Klaus wrote:
Burnwinter wrote:
😆 Delete your account Klaus, too rude. 🙂

🙂

Burnwinter wrote:
If he'd walked earlier we might be the ones watching Salah pick up Player of the Year. Instead he chose to stay and as you've just been cogently arguing yourself, will leave us with significantly depleted funds and a threadbare squad.

I don't think that one's on Wenger's head though. There's nothing to suggest that Salah was even recommended to him. For whatever reason English clubs don't like Serie A players. I said last summer that the rest of the top clubs in Premier League would regret not going for Salah, and yet Liverpool were the only ones who even tabled a bid. He scored 45 goals and assisted around 30 from the wing in 2.5 seasons in Italy. At 24 you'd think he would've been hot property on the market, but United, Arsenal, Chelsea, City, Spurs... no one wanted him. Roma have another player in Nainggolan right now who would instantly be the best midfielder in Premier League, and the only ones who have bid on him is a Chinese club. If someone figures out what's going on here I'd love to know.

There is definitely a lesson to be learned from the Salah transfer, but I think it concerns our scouts a lot more than the manager. We've been the worst top club in the world bar none over the last 5-6 years when it comes to identifying players. The only two top players we managed to attract basically fell into our lap, and they only signed for us because of Wenger. On the other hand the scouts told him not to sign Griezmann even though Wenger was keen. They told him there was no point in getting Kanté. They even went back to watch him a few times to make sure. When we needed to replace Per like three years ago they told us to get Gabriel. Wenger asked about Umtiti whom he had noticed playing for Lyon, and they told him Gabriel was a better bet. It's such an extraordinary level of incompetence. Luckily we've put a lot of money and effort into restructuring the whole scouting setup.

Should be pointed out that even prior to Salah, Liverpool have been able to get hold of some outstanding attacking players (and Andy Carroll) even though they've been public knowledge. Meanwhile the best we can do is take a punt on Danny Welbeck...

jones

Liverpool have a shotgun approach to signing players. I said it before but for every Suarez there's a Carroll, for every Salah there's a Benteke. You can credit their owners for giving their managers the funds needed but it's not like their scouts unearth the next big thing in some obscure league. They just try more often until it works - sometimes maybe even too often like in Aspas case

DiabyKungFu

jones wrote:
Liverpool have a shotgun approach to signing players. I said it before but for every Suarez there's a Carroll, for every Salah there's a Benteke. You can credit their owners for giving their managers the funds needed but it's not like their scouts unearth the next big thing in some obscure league. They just try more often until it works - sometimes maybe even too often like in Aspas case

I largely agree with this but this just goes to show how inefficient the market is. You don't really need to really be that smart to get ahead. You just need to not be actively stupid. For example, why in the world have the likes of Monaco and RB Leipzig been eating our lunch when it comes to signing talented youngsters? There's just absolutely no excuse for that at all.

Anzac

Talk that Enrique's personal terms have made CFC think twice about him as a potential replacement for Conte. That being the case then I'm not sure he brings enough surety to the table for us to then take that financial risk. I know we've been paying AW well above the norm but his replacement will not be doing half the role.

Have also seen comments on The Sunday Supplement that Allegri has said he'd only be leaving for another CL club.

BR would be too divisive - as much if not more so than AW of late.

Simeone is too different in style and would require too much squad rebuilding before we would be able to compete.

PV, Arteta & TH have no experience so far as a top league or UEFA competition.
Howe struggled at Burnley. Nagelsmann also lacks experience & success.

Ancelotti and Benitez both tick all the boxes re adaptability, league and UEFA success, and also PL experience. However Ancelotti may be too much akin to AW in his fatherly managerial style, whereas Benitez may be too much the pragmatist in terms of his style of play.

Surprised there isn't more talk regarding Sarri who has yet to sign a new deal with Napoli & reportedly has a single figure release clause. Despite losing key players such as Higuaín he has Napoli playing as one of the best entertainers of attacking football in Europe.

Likewise I'm also surprised there is not more talk re Jardim particularly when we have seen his young Monaco team knock us out of the CL 2 rebuilds ago, after which he then lost about 3-4 starting players but rebuilt to win the league and advance to the CL Q/Fs, and after then again losing another 4 or more starting players they are sitting 2nd in the league.

If our long term thinking is looking at our players coming through from the current Reserves and Youth sides to provide our HG numbers, then Jardim's record in regards to developing talent is 2nd to none.

ATM my preference is for either Jardim or Sarri.

Tactics

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2018/04/24/arsenal-confident-beating-chelsea-luis-enrique-decide-first/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

These Enrique rumours are giving me shivers

Anzac

http://www.football365.com/news/mails-no-to-arteta-but-what-about-mancini-for-arsenal

What about Mancini?
Nowadays when a managerial vacancy comes up it always seems to be the same list of managers that are linked with a job. This seasons relegation fighting teams did not deviate at all from the Allardyce, Pardew, Hodgson and Hughes axis the only surprise was that Pulis had to drop down to the championship before taking his normal seat managing a team of a Premier league also rans.
At the upper end of the league we find the same issue hence I thought I would propose an alternative list of candidates to the ones being banded around for replacing Wenger.
The passive Italian option. Riding high in the betting is Ancelotti, another Italian who is famed for his hands off and relaxed management style. As an alternative I would propose another loveable Italian who’s also won the premier league and managed Chelsea, Claudio Ranieri. For the record a passive manager is not what Arsenal need.
The ex-French international . Viera was a manager on the field, kept everyone in check and lead by example, now he’s making his name as a manager over in New York. However, when I look at the team sheet of the French 1998 world cup winners the ex-player I would suggest would be Lauren Blanc who has managed at the highest level in Europe and won league titles.
The ex-Arsenal player. Artea came across as an intelligent well considered man who seems to have the right set of morals to be an Arsenal manager and is apparently learning all there is to know about management under the Dutch-influenced total football teachings of Pep. If I was going for an ex player I’d want one that has cut their managerial teeth somewhere else first hence I’d go for Van Bronckhorst who seems to have been doing a reasonable job over in Holland.
The ex-Barca manager. Sure, Luis Enrique did a great job at Barca winning everything that is on offer, but he’s hardly the only one. Instead of going for the one that followed Pep why not have a look at the one Pep took over from, Rijkaard was a hell of a player and although his star has faded post Barca, he is not given the credit he deserves for delivering what at that point was only Barca’s second champions league, you could argue he not Pep was the catalyst for their decade plus of greatness.
The Celtic option. Brendan Rodgers seems to be doing amazing things in the one league team that is the SPL, but of course also won nothing at Liverpool while having the likes of Suarez, Coutinho, Sterling and Gérard. Why he’s linked to the Arsenal job I will never know. But if you want to push an ex-Celtic manager then you might as well throw Martin O’Neil’s hat into the ring, he did more in Scotland when there was actually a team to compete against and had moderate success in the Premier league and in international football. I’d be completely against this appointment as I think O’Neil is overrated but would literally take anyone over Rodgers.
The Argentina option. Diego Simeone is not going to leave Atletico for Arsenal. Hence if you’re going to band about names of high flying Argentina coaches who aren’t going to leave their current club why not put the cat amongst the pigeons and talk about Pochettino making the move across North London? Yes, I know I’m currently looking out the window at the flying pigs.
The big hitting International manager. Sure, Joachim Low has done great things with Germany but we all know this is not a great barometer for club football management. However, if you are going to look at a manager currently managing a major European country why not look at Deschamps?
The pragmatic Italian option. Everyone is going on about Allegri when we all know there is no chance of him swapping league leading Juventus for Arsenal. Instead I would suggest another Italian manager that is equally pragmatic, has won in Serie A but more relevant and important speaks English and has won the Premier League as a manager, step forward Roberto Mancini. He’s the one I’d go for.
Paul K, London

Add the likes of Cocu, De Boer, Laudrup, Villas Boas - some more serious than others.
If we are to be brave as Gazidis has said, then IMO we can leave no stone unturned.

Anzac

Tactics wrote:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2018/04/24/arsenal-confident-beating-chelsea-luis-enrique-decide-first/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

These Enrique rumours are giving me shivers

For good or bad?

Tactics

Anzac wrote:
Tactics wrote:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2018/04/24/arsenal-confident-beating-chelsea-luis-enrique-decide-first/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

These Enrique rumours are giving me shivers

For good or bad?

Bad, I don't rate him. I'd rather have Wenger.

y va marquer

I'm hearing the name [size=x-small][font=Arial]Ralf Rangnick being bandied about now.[/font][/size]

[size=x-small][font=Arial]Shivers?[/font][/size]

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