Quincy Abeyie wrote:

No way is Xhaka a better player now than before he joined us.

Oh my. If he is better now, how shit was the guy while he played in Germany?

Captain wrote:

Are we already at the point where we pretend a player is better than he is in order to be negative about the coaching?

People have been at this point for at least about 5 years now.

HomeSteak wrote:

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

No way is Xhaka a better player now than before he joined us.

Oh my. If he is better now, how shit was the guy while he played in Germany?

He's definitely much more rounded than he was when he came here. Someone cheated when they taught that bloke the basics.

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

No way is Xhaka a better player now than before he joined us.

People think if you are better than your first few months in the team you have improved completely ignoring the players career before they joined. This is true for Xhaka and Giroud.

Ricky1985 wrote:

I think Captain is making a perfectly valid argument. Giroud is a class striker, albeit with limitations that cannot be overcome that stop him moving into that top class bracket, he's obviously worked very hard and listened to the coaches. Just as Koscielny has, Bellerin has, Monreal has, Toure did, Hleb did, Adebayor did, and countless others. Hell, Granit Xhaka is a much better player today than he was when he joined, and on and on.

Wenger might have forgotten how to build a winning team, but he's made lemonade with a lot of lemons in the last 10 years.

Toure is a lifetime away. Hleb and Adebayor pretty much the same. Monreal again was good before he came here, shit here for ages and then went back to being good. Bellerin was a kid when he joined, you can credit his improvements under Wenger about as much as you can blame Wenger for Cechs decline. Kos is the standout argument for Wenger improving a player and I'd say the last time he really unearthed a player and transformed them into something.

I think the impact of coaching at this stage of players careers is massively overstated anyway. Players just look better or worse depending on tactics, teammates, confidence, playing in a well functioning team etc.

Wenger was an expert at building teams, not coaching them. He’s struggled with it recently hence we’ve struggled to get the most out of certain players.

Qwiss! wrote:

Ricky1985 wrote:

I think Captain is making a perfectly valid argument. Giroud is a class striker, albeit with limitations that cannot be overcome that stop him moving into that top class bracket, he's obviously worked very hard and listened to the coaches. Just as Koscielny has, Bellerin has, Monreal has, Toure did, Hleb did, Adebayor did, and countless others. Hell, Granit Xhaka is a much better player today than he was when he joined, and on and on.

Wenger might have forgotten how to build a winning team, but he's made lemonade with a lot of lemons in the last 10 years.

Toure is a lifetime away. Hleb and Adebayor pretty much the same. Monreal again was good before he came here, shit here for ages and then went back to being good. Bellerin was a kid when he joined, you can credit his improvements under Wenger about as much as you can blame Wenger for Cechs decline. Kos is the standout argument for Wenger improving a player and I'd say the last time he really unearthed a player and transformed them into something.

Both Koscielny and Giroud were late-bloomers, they were just getting started at the top level when they came here, so naturally they will get better. Also, most of the players whose improvement is credited to Wenger have, as you say, been young players that have matured or players that have reached their prime during their time with us. The point you made about adapting to the League/team vs. actual improvement is also spot on.

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

No way is Xhaka a better player now than before he joined us.

I don't know what he was like at Monchengladbach but he's improved on a lot of things since I watched him start playing in an Arsenal shirt.

Qwiss! wrote:

Ricky1985 wrote:

I think Captain is making a perfectly valid argument. Giroud is a class striker, albeit with limitations that cannot be overcome that stop him moving into that top class bracket, he's obviously worked very hard and listened to the coaches. Just as Koscielny has, Bellerin has, Monreal has, Toure did, Hleb did, Adebayor did, and countless others. Hell, Granit Xhaka is a much better player today than he was when he joined, and on and on.

Wenger might have forgotten how to build a winning team, but he's made lemonade with a lot of lemons in the last 10 years.

Toure is a lifetime away. Hleb and Adebayor pretty much the same. Monreal again was good before he came here, shit here for ages and then went back to being good. Bellerin was a kid when he joined, you can credit his improvements under Wenger about as much as you can blame Wenger for Cechs decline. Kos is the standout argument for Wenger improving a player and I'd say the last time he really unearthed a player and transformed them into something.

Do you think Wenger has lost the ability to coach or do you think it's more likely he's not been able to get the same level of talent into the club and that's why the examples of improvement aren't as incredible as they were for the first 15 years of his Arsenal career?

I mean, I mention Toure, Hleb and Adebayor because the improvements they made under Wenger's guidance was almost unbelievable, but I'd personally say the majority of players in our current squad are better players today than the day we signed them.

Toure was brilliantly scouted and put in a team full of leaders with the exact right balance for him. If you stuck Rob Holding in the middle of Lauren, Campbell, Gilberto and Vieira he'd look a lot better too.

Adebayor and Hleb were mediocre players who had brief purple patches. I don't think either were coached into amazing levels above themselves. Although Wenger did get the best anyone could have hoped out of from Adebayor for one season I'll give him that.

You expect players to improve throughout their career as a natural progression though depending on their age, experience and injuries. If you sign a Granit Xhaka at 24 its very reasonable to expect him to quite a bit bitter at 27/28 if he doesn't suffer some major set back. I'm not sure Xhaka looks better at 25 than he did at 23.

Qwiss! wrote:

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

No way is Xhaka a better player now than before he joined us.

People think if you are better than your first few months in the team you have improved completely ignoring the players career before they joined. This is true for Xhaka and Giroud.

Xhaka has surely not lived upto what was expected from him and we are failing to get the best out of him. 

Others with bigger reputations have come to this League and failed under what many would assume were better coaching setups. Kagawa was the best player in the Bundesliga and he failed under the same setup that won titles with Darren Fletcher being a starter. Mkhitariyan may be an average talent but he had a stellar year in the Bundesliga and CL before he came here. He can't get a game. You may argue he was never worth it to begin with but that will be unfair when you have also made the argument above about players and their careers before they came here. 

The likes of Giroud and Monreal are definitely better footballers now than they were when they arrived. If that is down to the players, their natural progression then you also have to acknowledge that signings also fail because they do not fit in, work as hard as they should or simply weren't that good with a high ceiling in the first place. If the club is the reason certain players aren't developing then the club should also get complete credit for the players that progress here, else it becomes convenient.

I just think our recruitment has been mostly flawed. Kagawa and Mkhitariyan didn't suit the United setup and someone like Xhaka doesn't suit our football. It is unfair to just discredit our entire technical setup and I really don't have any affinity for them but we have done well with most we sign, poorly with some. We just have signed the caliber of player we should be.

Sanchez was always an incredible talent but he wasn't scoring and assisting as much as he has done here. He probably would have become as good at any other club but it's not as if we have failed to get the best out of him individually.

I think its really twisting the whole conversation from "I think Wenger might be trying to coach Lacazette into passing more" to where we are now as if I insinuated no player has ever improved under Wenger.

Using Giroud as an example of a player Wenger transformed doesn't wash with me either. He was a 20+ goal Ligue 1 striker who became a 15 goal a season PL striker. Thats respectable but expected, its no great feat of coaching.

You watch every Arsenal game and you have seen the improvement. He's not a player from Liguria Spinosa who you can only judge on stats and YouTube.

Besides, I detailed the issues that plague Lacazette. If someone sees it differently, then fine.

Captain wrote:

You watch every Arsenal game and you have seen the improvement. He's not a player from Liguria Spinosa who you can only judge on stats and YouTube.

I've seen people who slated him at first eventually come around to him but he's essentially the same player he was when he arrived. Playing with Ozil and Sanchez makes his short coming less annoying for people than they were when he was flanked by Podolski and Gervinho.

Qwiss! wrote:

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

No way is Xhaka a better player now than before he joined us.

People think if you are better than your first few months in the team you have improved completely ignoring the players career before they joined. This is true for Xhaka and Giroud.

Exactly. People say we need to give players time to settle etc but when we talk about their development it seems to start at the day of their signing.

Qwiss! wrote:

I think its really twisting the whole conversation from "I think Wenger might be trying to coach Lacazette into passing more" to where we are now as if I insinuated no player has ever improved under Wenger.

Using Giroud as an example of a player Wenger transformed doesn't wash with me either. He was a 20+ goal Ligue 1 striker who became a 15 goal a season PL striker. Thats respectable but expected, its no great feat of coaching.

Exactly. You can make a case for some others, but Giroud obviously doesn't fit into the improvement by coaching picture. He's pretty much what he was when we bought him, just that he adapted to our football.

Giroud was a player that we needed to work on. Is there seriously no difference in the player we bought and the level he has shown over the years?

I mean come on. One thing to say it was all to do with the player himself but Giroud's all round game improved a lot from his first season here at Arsenal.

I think Koscielny and Monreal (in his new role) are the two players that have radically changed under Wenger and would fit along side any of Wenger's previous success stories. Incidentally, I would also throw van Persie in there - this forum was up in arms when Wenger started playing him as a number 9 - but that was some impressive work and seems to have been forgotten.

As for the rest of them - sure, they've improved but not to the point where I believe Wenger is absolutely the only manager who could have brought about that transformation. Giroud is an interesting one, I'd argue his overall play has improved dramatically but I also think a lot of that improvement came about as a result of him being taken out of the firing line and thereby playing with less physical and mental baggage. If we played him for 55+ games a season, I think his flaws would be more obvious.