Gun violence in USA: Page 8 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Gun violence in USA

TambourineMan

Burnwinter wrote:
Tambourine Man wrote:
By that logic more Muslims suffer from mental illness than any other group of people because they commit acts like in far greater numbers than any other group. I don't buy that, they tell us exactly why they do they things do but we look beyond the veil for different explanations.

Why don't you buy it? Muslims come far more frequently from marginalised, oppressed or war-torn communities.

It's easy see those communities have become that way due to the tortuous geopolitics of territorial control, shipping channel control, and resource extraction through the twentieth century.

As well as the fifty year standoff between the West and communism, in which "political Islam" was allowed to run unchecked because it was a useful counterweight to potentially troublesome movements like pan-Arabism.

Yes, ideology plays a part. But it's far, far less than people love to think. Ideology is not an instrument of mass control so much as a trigger or enabler for the statistically guaranteed pathologies of a minority of already severely damaged people.

Look at the Kouachi brothers, or Abdelhamid Abaaoud. All three "radicalised" in and out of the prison system, dysfunctional families, drug use, aberrant and violent behaviour, members of stigmatised and socially excluded communities.

It's always convenient to attribute what you don't understand to some transcendent "essence" of race, culture or religion. At the end of the day you're better off following the money.

All of that would make sense but when you consider that a quarter of Muslims in the UK believe that the Charlie Hebdo cartoonist had what was coming to them, you can't point to oppression, political instability and other geographical exploitation's as being any kind of driver.

I went to university with a dude who went on to slaughter 8 people in Bangladesh. He was a normal dude who came from an upper middle class family who had the resources to educate him overseas. He sat in my car, ate with me and played sports with me. He was super religious but not odd in any other way. One day I see he along with four other men of a similar profile to him storm a cafe in the heart of Dhaka and kill a bunch of people who could not recite the Quaran by heart. Other factors play a part but to say it is a greater influence than the believe upon which their entire lives are built upon is bullshit. The majority of muslims even in moderate Muslim countries condone that apostates should be sentenced to death. That is driven by ideology and nothing else.

It's always difficult to explain to people in the western world just how important religion is to some in other parts of the world. People hold their religion in higher esteem than their parents. They are willing to go to any lengths to protect it, they will kill you in the street if you openly insult it. See various examples in Pakistan. It is more important to them than anything else. To say other indistinct factors are more important than what is staring you in the face is being afraid of admitting that some cultures are flawed and outdated.

Daz

It has been said here previously and elsewhere, but why do we continue to focus discussion on religion or other supposed factors like mental illness when the clear and undebiable common variable in these mass killings is gender?

Burnwinter

All of that would make sense but when you consider that a quarter of Muslims in the UK believe that the Charlie Hebdo cartoonist had what was coming to them, you can't point to oppression, political instability and other geographical exploitation's as being any kind of driver.

Similarly, many westerners believe (as you appear to) in all manner of essentialist rationalisations for the relative economic misfortune of minorities in western countries, the relative prevalence of war in the Middle East, etc etc.

It's not hard to look at AIDS and conclude it's God's punishment for homosexuals, if that's your Weltanschauung.

It's not hard to look at history and conclude "hey maybe half a millennium of colonisation, slavery, political oppression, warfare and economic tyranny have something to do with it", but there are lots of less uncomfortable conclusions.

Are there more deaths in the street due to religious insult in Pakistan than there are multiple murders in the US? Is it reasonable to conclude from a long pattern of incidents that all men in the US are homicidal gun nuts?

@[deleted] it's literally the first thing I said above, but others have immediately dragged the topic back onto Islam despite the fact the latest killer was a Christian-turned-atheist!

TambourineMan

Burnwinter wrote:

All of that would make sense but when you consider that a quarter of Muslims in the UK believe that the Charlie Hebdo cartoonist had what was coming to them, you can't point to oppression, political instability and other geographical exploitation's as being any kind of driver.

Similarly, many westerners believe (as you appear to) in all manner of essentialist rationalisations for the relative economic misfortune of minorities in western countries, the relative prevalence of war in the Middle East, etc etc.

It's not hard to look at AIDS and conclude it's God's punishment for homosexuals, if that's your Weltanschauung.

It's not hard to look at history and conclude "hey maybe half a millennium of colonisation, slavery, political oppression, warfare and economic tyranny have something to do with it", but there are lots of less uncomfortable conclusions.

Are there more deaths in the street due to religious insult in Pakistan than there are multiple murders in the US? Is it reasonable to conclude from a long pattern of incidents that all men in the US are homicidal gun nuts?

@[deleted] it's literally the first thing I said above, but others have immediately dragged the topic back onto Islam despite the fact the latest killer was a Christian-turned-atheist!

There are other factors, I'm not denying that but it's impact cannot be reliably measured. We can see on the other hand the very real influence of religion on the behaviour of men who blow themselves up for 72 virgins.

How many of those multiple murders in the US have something in common? How many of those murders are happening for the same reason? If there was one unique identifiable reason that drove it would you not want to eradicate it? If there were as many attacks by US gunmen as they are by Islamic terrorist, then yes it would be fair to conclude that a dangerous portion of men in the US are homicidal gun nuts.

Men are more violent than women. How is that surprising?

Daz

Burnwinter wrote:
[size=large]@[deleted] it's literally the first thing I said above, but others have immediately dragged the topic back onto Islam despite the fact the latest killer was a Christian-turned-atheist! [/size]

Sorry Burnsy, I stopped reading your posts years ago.

Burnwinter

Boycott Daz. #ReadBurnwintersPosts

Daz

Men are more violent than women. How is that surprising?

It's not surprising at all unfortunately, but surely that makes it more relevant to the discussion, not less?

@Burnsy, ok I'll give you one more chance. Just don't make me regret it.

goon

Tambourine Man wrote:
Burnwinter wrote:
Why don't you buy it? Muslims come far more frequently from marginalised, oppressed or war-torn communities.

It's easy see those communities have become that way due to the tortuous geopolitics of territorial control, shipping channel control, and resource extraction through the twentieth century.

As well as the fifty year standoff between the West and communism, in which "political Islam" was allowed to run unchecked because it was a useful counterweight to potentially troublesome movements like pan-Arabism.

Yes, ideology plays a part. But it's far, far less than people love to think. Ideology is not an instrument of mass control so much as a trigger or enabler for the statistically guaranteed pathologies of a minority of already severely damaged people.

Look at the Kouachi brothers, or Abdelhamid Abaaoud. All three "radicalised" in and out of the prison system, dysfunctional families, drug use, aberrant and violent behaviour, members of stigmatised and socially excluded communities.

It's always convenient to attribute what you don't understand to some transcendent "essence" of race, culture or religion. At the end of the day you're better off following the money.

All of that would make sense but when you consider that a quarter of Muslims in the UK believe that the Charlie Hebdo cartoonist had what was coming to them, you can't point to oppression, political instability and other geographical exploitation's as being any kind of driver.

I went to university with a dude who went on to slaughter 8 people in Bangladesh. He was a normal dude who came from an upper middle class family who had the resources to educate him overseas. He sat in my car, ate with me and played sports with me. He was super religious but not odd in any other way. One day I see he along with four other men of a similar profile to him storm a cafe in the heart of Dhaka and kill a bunch of people who could not recite the Quaran by heart. Other factors play a part but to say it is a greater influence than the believe upon which their entire lives are built upon is bullshit. The majority of muslims even in moderate Muslim countries condone that apostates should be sentenced to death. That is driven by ideology and nothing else.

How many would act on it though? People say and believe all sorts of shit. You mentioned Bangladesh, go to my granddads village and ask them about their views on homosexuals and you'd likely hear some very worrying views. Yet there's a fella there who practically everyone knows is gay and they all love him. The worst you get is some distasteful jokes behind his back that you'd find in your average pub here.

To say it's driven by nothing but ideology is a gross misunderstanding of the situation, there's so many other factors at play. You look at Western 'home grown' terrorists and there is often a common denominator, whether it's crime, drugs, poverty or links to the same preacher etc. I'd say one of the biggest factors that often goes ignored is cultural.

Ray

Tambourine Man wrote:
Burnwinter wrote:
Why don't you buy it? Muslims come far more frequently from marginalised, oppressed or war-torn communities.

It's easy see those communities have become that way due to the tortuous geopolitics of territorial control, shipping channel control, and resource extraction through the twentieth century.

As well as the fifty year standoff between the West and communism, in which "political Islam" was allowed to run unchecked because it was a useful counterweight to potentially troublesome movements like pan-Arabism.

Yes, ideology plays a part. But it's far, far less than people love to think. Ideology is not an instrument of mass control so much as a trigger or enabler for the statistically guaranteed pathologies of a minority of already severely damaged people.

Look at the Kouachi brothers, or Abdelhamid Abaaoud. All three "radicalised" in and out of the prison system, dysfunctional families, drug use, aberrant and violent behaviour, members of stigmatised and socially excluded communities.

It's always convenient to attribute what you don't understand to some transcendent "essence" of race, culture or religion. At the end of the day you're better off following the money.

All of that would make sense but when you consider that a quarter of Muslims in the UK believe that the Charlie Hebdo cartoonist had what was coming to them, you can't point to oppression, political instability and other geographical exploitation's as being any kind of driver.

I went to university with a dude who went on to slaughter 8 people in Bangladesh. He was a normal dude who came from an upper middle class family who had the resources to educate him overseas. He sat in my car, ate with me and played sports with me. He was super religious but not odd in any other way. One day I see he along with four other men of a similar profile to him storm a cafe in the heart of Dhaka and kill a bunch of people who could not recite the Quaran by heart. Other factors play a part but to say it is a greater influence than the believe upon which their entire lives are built upon is bullshit. The majority of muslims even in moderate Muslim countries condone that apostates should be sentenced to death. That is driven by ideology and nothing else.

It's always difficult to explain to people in the western world just how important religion is to some in other parts of the world. People hold their religion in higher esteem than their parents. They are willing to go to any lengths to protect it, they will kill you in the street if you openly insult it. See various examples in Pakistan. It is more important to them than anything else. To say other indistinct factors are more important than what is staring you in the face is being afraid of admitting that some cultures are flawed and outdated.

BIB where did you get this from?

Bold Tone

Burnwinter wrote:
Geoffrey Boycott Does Read Burnwinters Posts

TambourineMan

Ray wrote:
Tambourine Man wrote:
All of that would make sense but when you consider that a quarter of Muslims in the UK believe that the Charlie Hebdo cartoonist had what was coming to them, you can't point to oppression, political instability and other geographical exploitation's as being any kind of driver.

I went to university with a dude who went on to slaughter 8 people in Bangladesh. He was a normal dude who came from an upper middle class family who had the resources to educate him overseas. He sat in my car, ate with me and played sports with me. He was super religious but not odd in any other way. One day I see he along with four other men of a similar profile to him storm a cafe in the heart of Dhaka and kill a bunch of people who could not recite the Quaran by heart. Other factors play a part but to say it is a greater influence than the believe upon which their entire lives are built upon is bullshit. The majority of muslims even in moderate Muslim countries condone that apostates should be sentenced to death. That is driven by ideology and nothing else.

It's always difficult to explain to people in the western world just how important religion is to some in other parts of the world. People hold their religion in higher esteem than their parents. They are willing to go to any lengths to protect it, they will kill you in the street if you openly insult it. See various examples in Pakistan. It is more important to them than anything else. To say other indistinct factors are more important than what is staring you in the face is being afraid of admitting that some cultures are flawed and outdated.

BIB where did you get this from?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11433776/Quarter-of-British-Muslims-sympathise-with-Charlie-Hebdo-terrorists.html

Burnwinter

Bold Tone wrote:
Burnwinter wrote:
Geoffrey Boycott Does Read Burnwinters Posts

🙂

Naggin' at 'im. Liiiine and length.

banduan

Burnwinter wrote:
flobaba wrote:
What is going on in Saudi? This is kinda huge, guys.

Something fucking bizarre that I don't understand well at all.

It's not bizarre at all, it's a pure coup pre-emption.

btw boy has this thread gone off-track.

Bold Tone

banduan wrote:
....

btw boy has this thread gone off-track.

Is this gun enough for you?

banduan

Nah, this is gun enough.

The bloke peddles anti-vax anti-pharma health supplements and miracle cures while being an expert on foreign policy, national administration and, it seems, gun forensics.

Burnwinter

Experts on everything are real Bandy, I know because I'm one of them.

arsedocmd

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/14/us/california-tehama-county-shootings/index.html

More shooting, more dying.

Klaus

He just tweeted condoleances to the wrong mass shooting. Sutherland Springs was last week. I'm just...

arsedocmd

cant blame him. Difficult to keep track.

arsedocmd

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