Dutch, French and German elections: Page 14 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Dutch, French and German elections

JazzG

What were the big issues going into the Swedish elections?

Segway

NATO, gang crime and immigration policy were the big issues as far as I understood. The past year it has seemed like a person has been shot dead once a week over there which is insanely frequent for a Nordic country.

JazzG

I thought the new lot are pro NATO? Is there good support for NATO there?

Gang Crime & Immigration seems to be an issue everywhere, it isn't helped either when the two things are sometimes linked to each other.

Mirth

Ignore the source but I suspect von der Leyen's intervention will prove to be quite unhelpful and will backfire

Qwiss

It's almost as if they want to push "populist" discontent to the right.

JazzG

Mirth wrote:
Ignore the source but I suspect von der Leyen's intervention will prove to be quite unhelpful and will backfire

This is just fuel and justification for those who don't agree with the path of the EU. Adds weight to those who feel unelected officials having too much power.

Burnwinter

As we've seen since the migrant crisis, right wing nationalism and EU boosting actually go together.

The liberal centre that supports federal Europe uses the "legitimate concerns" of the populist rights among European nations, and now the actual war in Ukraine, as political levers to justify increasing NATO budgets, militarising Frontex, etc.

As for sovereignty, Italy already got told who's boss during the eurozone debt crisis. The "tools" are quite operational.

Mirth

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63029909

QuincyAbeyie

[Twitter]

Yeah yeah, the thread doesn't say Italian election, but forgive me. I find it fascinating that these cheap tricks work. She'll put up strawmen like "it's time to put an end to attacks on family values" and the conservatives will go "hey, I like families! She's onto something".

JazzG

Ex PM of centre left party doesn't seem to think she is a fascist. Listen about 1 min into the interview.

KingslandBarge

Geert Wilders is the new Dutch PM. Is this for real? Surely the popular majority electorate isn't an image of this cretin.

Burnwinter

KingslandBarge Geert Wilders is the new Dutch PM

Europe continuing its banter era

JazzG

He has 37 seats, I think he needs to form a coalition as he needs 76 seats to form government. I don't know too much about the other parties to say whether he'll get there easily.

Not entirely surprising, mass immigration in recent times has become a big talking point. Also in Holland there was a big row with the farmers which I think has really polarised views out there. People were not happy with what the current government are doing.

We've seen in Argentina recently as well people are fed up of their usual politicians and wanted change. I think Brexit/Trump started this, people are fed up and will reach out to more extremes for change. Lockdowns and crazy inflation will only make this worse.

Pepe LeFrits

Grim

Gurgen

It had to happen sometime. The right has been screwing the middle class for decades. The left has abandoned its working class electorate in favour of spouting woke nonsense all the time. The gap between rich and poor is widening and purchasing power of ordinary people is declining. If 'normal' political parties do nothing about it and don't even have a story on it, people are going to vote for extremists. A very familiar story all over the world.

Luckily NL is a coalition country and Wilders will have to abandon many of his unconstitutional ideas in order to rule. In his interview yesterday he immediately abandoned the idea of closing mosques and banning Qurans. I suspect all this will mainly lead to a much stricter immigration policy. The worst thing about Wilders is his foreign policy, let's hope the other parties can reign his his reflex of supporting whatever autocrats can be found abroad.

Mirth

Gurgen Luckily NL is a coalition country and Wilders will have to abandon many of his unconstitutional ideas in order to rule. In his interview yesterday he immediately abandoned the idea of closing mosques and banning Qurans. I suspect all this will mainly lead to a much stricter immigration policy. The worst thing about Wilders is his foreign policy, let's hope the other parties can reign his his reflex of supporting whatever autocrats can be found abroad.

Feel like that’s a recipe for pushing an even harder right populist through. Ultimately the trend line in Europe is clear and if Wilders ends up being restricted or limited, it’ll clear the space for a more aggressive individual until something breaks.

That isn’t to say the break will happen in the Netherlands as it’s a mid size but extremely prosperous country but other countries will take note. You mention taking a harder line on immigration but for the most part the core competencies there exist at an EU level rather than a national level.

There’s got to be room for a socially conservative, fiscally liberal party as an escape valve for the current malaise.

Daz

Gurgen The left has abandoned its working class electorate in favour of spouting woke nonsense all the time.

I see this kind of statement being made all the time (including here) and usually without much explanation or analysis. I'm interested to know more about specific things you would consider to be "woke nonsense" that a leftist political party shouldn't pursue as part of its policy agenda?

JazzG

Gurgen Spot on, mainstream parties are basically taking their electorate for mugs and this is what happens when you push that too far.

For example in this country people have seen billions go missing during Covid here yet essential services being cut right down to the bone. Taxes are sky high and being used to pay for those billions wasted. I honestly think after Labour the Conservative party will become a lot more extreme and probably end up back in power. I think with Starmer it is going to be more of the same no real change.

goon

This is why I think proportional representation sucks. Nothing but a vehicle for fringe populist lunatics.

Feels like every country needs to go through a populist leader at least once before realising it's a scam.

Gurgen

I don’t feel like writing an essay but these parties are happy to pursue neoliberal economic policies while spending most of their energy on the culture wars. In the end they are left with no electorate, only a tiny upper middle class elite. Woke nonsense is for example arguing for hijab in the police force (as Timmermans did), while daily shopping has become twice as expensive for ordinary people.

Burnwinter

Gurgen Woke nonsense is for example arguing for hijab in the police force

Arguing to ban the Qur'an is just a variant of "identitarianism" as is blatantly obvious. Equally if not more ephemeral, albeit utterly racist.

It is misplaced to blame the inflation currently happening all over the world on migrants. It's the result of an over-extended era of cheap credit, alongside the utter negligence of domestic economies, and the abandonment of basics like "building houses" for a generation.

That isn't me being woke. It's just untrue migration is to blame. Even migration's supposed status as among the interlinked causes of upward pressure on the prices of economic basics is debated—the best you could say is that it's all linked to the abject neglect of supply by people with actual power, those who are happy for the poor and migrants to starve alike.

Anyway, the Netherlands will figure out the same as the UK has. The "exit" parties don't regulate migration and they don't fix the economy.

Meatwad

a war has 2 sides. so with this culture war, your problem isn't the war, it's about which side you're on. you'd just prefer the other side concede to your side and then all will be right with the world.

Gurgen

Meatwad Not really, but unless 'progressives' acknowledge that people not like them may also have legitimate concerns, you will continue to have your Trumps. Enjoy.

It's also quite silly to think in sides. Those culture wars cover many topics on which people may have either liberal or conservative views depending on the topic. For example, in NL most people have very liberal views on abortion and LGBT rights but many have more conservative views on migration.

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